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Hi. I'm new to the forum. I use .sf2 soundfonts in the music software I use to compose and adapt songs. It's called MuseScore 3.62. Although Musescore has come out with a newer version that uses VST libraries, I don't yet use it and am still using the older .sf2 soundfont version, for a variety of performance reasons.
I have found some very nice VST sounds online that I would love to use in MuseScore 3.62. I am prepared to buy them. Is there any software anywhere that will input a VST sound and convert it to an .sf2 soundfont? I tried Polyphone but so far, no go.
Help!
fg
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I have found some very nice VST sounds online that I would love to use in MuseScore 3.62. I am prepared to buy them. Is there any software anywhere that will input a VST sound and convert it to an .sf2 soundfont? I tried Polyphone but so far, no go.
Help! Ya, there should be software to do just that. Musocity would likely know. He stops by the forums in the off hours. But why do you want to do that? MuseScore 4 offers an entire free library of great sounds, including it allows you to use any VST3 (i.e., Kontakt)! Time for you to step up to the new MuseScore 4.2.1 ? Oh, and welcome to the forum.
Last edited by DrDan; 04/13/24 03:44 PM.
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Dr. Dan:
Thanks for the reply. I am not using Musescore 4.2.1 yet, because it has not implemented dynamics editing for hairpins and dynamics. I currently use MS 3.6.2 because it allows me to fine-tune the volume of every instrument in a score, as often as I wish, in every measure, using hairpins and dynamics edits. For example, the dynamic of "p" = 49 (volume). The next dynamic is "mp" = 64. In MS 4.2.1, I have to use one of them ... period. In MS3.6.2, I can edit the "p" to equal 55, or use a hairpin to slowly increase volume from "p" to 55 over 2 measures using a rising hairpin. Perhaps it doesn't always matter but to me, those smaller changes in volume mean a lot when adapting an existing song to Musescore sheet music. I listen to the score using the recorder when done and I need the feature present.
There are also several things still missing from MS4.2.1 that I need for my work. So, I cannot use its ability to use higher quality VST instruments. That's why I posted the question about .sf2 soundfonts. They are the only ones I can use in MS 3.62.
fg
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Thanks for your reply. I wish I knew DAW keyboards but I don't. I don't even own one, so ...
I have sent an inquiry email to the two software links you posted to see if their software can convert a VST library of instruments to individual .sf soundfonts, so we'll see what happens.
fg
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I currently use MS 3.6.2 because it allows me to fine-tune the volume of every instrument in a score, as often as I wish, in every measure, using hairpins and dynamics edits. When you mention 'hairpins', is that referring to Crescendo and Diminuendo, which refer to gradual increasing or decreasing in volume? Like this: ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27848&filename=2024-04-14_11-53-14.jpg) Oh, and welcome to the neighborhood also.
Last edited by AudioTrack; 04/13/24 06:56 PM.
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Audiotrack:
Yes, the hairpins you used are exactly what I mean. By using an up and then a down hairpin, I can swell the instrument volume in that track by a little, or a lot, by simply adjusting the velocity of the two hairpins in MS 3.62. For example, I frequently use a <+10 and a >-10 for the two hairpins, causing a modest swell mid-measure then falloff. MS 4.2.1 does not yet have velocity edits for hairpins, or for dynamics marks either. That is why I am seeking a really good solo soprano female voice as a .sf2 soundfont, not as a VST (which 4.2.1 can use).
fg
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Are you using Musescore as a DAW ? I have never thought of using notation software to obtain precise performances.
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Are you using Musescore as a DAW ? Musescore is definitely not a DAW. It does, though, play the scores and it will export MusicXML and/or MIDI, so it can be a useful way to get music from notation into a DAW. The process still has a number of issues.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Late response to a thread that started three months ago, but...
I've created SFZ files using a Reaper to render other instruments at various velocities. It's tedious, but definitely works.
I'm not sure how well that's going to work for the OP, though. Unless you set up the opcodes on the instrument so it crossfades to another sample as the amplitude changes, it's going to to keep playing the initially triggered sample.
That means if the instrument starts a note at a low velocity, it'll trigger the sample assigned to that low velocity. As the amplitude of the same note increases, it'll continue to play that low velocity sample, but at a louder volume. That makes for a not very convincing change of dynamics.
I built some instruments for my EWI before I had the full version of Kontakt, and had exactly that problem. All the notes triggered low velocity samples, because the attack started at a low velocity.
The short term workaround was to drop the multi-velocity samples and instead use instruments sampled at one medium velocity. The long term solution was to get Kontakt and instruments that responded to varying breath pressure.
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I am sorry for not answering earlier posts. I have read your detailed explanation and sadly, it is way beyond me. I do not use a DAW and while I guess I could find a "reaper" (whatever that is), I suspect its manipulations are WAY beyond me. I am a novice when it comes to music software. I can use MuseScore's notation software fine, but anything else is foreign to me. I do not own a portable keyboard or DAW, and really am just trying to convert VST sounds into something my Musescore 3.62 software can use as .sf2 soundfonts. Unfortunately, I have slowly learned that conversion of a complete VST library of samples into a single .sf2 soundfont is just not possible.
fg
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Thanks for your reply. I wish I knew DAW keyboards but I don't. I don't even own one... That suggests a misunderstanding. A DAW is not a keyboard, it's a means to manipulate the sounds that either you produce from elsewhere, or you produce within the DAW using MIDI and VST(s). I'm guessing that you use MuseScore to produce scores usable by musicians, and/or you use MuseScore to produce a musical output for some purpose. Musescore 3 will produce MIDI, certainly to a MIDI file ... I'm not sure about drag-and-drop. What you may be able to do is to produce the MIDI from MuseScore, polishing the performance there as much as you are able and then transfer the MIDI to a DAW (or BIAB, see later), where you then substitute the VST instruments for MuseScore 3's SF2 sounds. Whether or not that workflow would work for you I couldn't say, but it's certainly an option. There are some pretty good free DAWs around with which you could try the principle to see if it works for you. One called Ardour is popular. The catch is that DAWs are fairly non-trivial to learn and the learning may be more than you would want to do. Reaper is a commercial DAW that is well respected, pretty low cost and the website has a large series of excellent tutorial videos that show how to use it. https://www.reaper.fm/Now, BIAB (Band In A Box) is another tool that, if you haven't yet explored, you probably should. What BIAB does is build backing tracks and optionally melody/harmony/soloist tracks that match a chord progression that you type into it. It makes these tracks using some very intelligent methods, based upon your chords and your choice of it's built-in styles. Whether that is useful to you probably depends upon the type of music you make and whether BIAB's styles match what you want. If you're making pop, jazz, country, blues, folk, gospel and so on, it can make some really convincing backing using samples played by real musicians, grafted to your chord progressions (note, not the MIDI, though*). If you're making classical, baroque, early instruments and the like, then it's probably not so helpful. * BIAB will play the MIDI with whatever VSTs you choose, but you would then normally not allow it to generate it's own accompaniment on those tracks. It will, though, generate MIDI accompaniment rather that "RealTracks" if you wish. Caveat ... at this time, BIAB does not yet directly support VST3. EDIT: This PGMusic website has many tutorials for BIAB and I commend also Henry Clarke's YouTube channel, which is perhaps easier to get started. https://www.youtube.com/@henryclarke5407
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 07/05/24 10:56 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Wow, now I am really being challenged. Thank you so much for explaining one option. I have sought a means of importing a VST sound into MuseScore 3.62, so that I can use it in the program to adapt a song to sheet music. The .sf2 soundfonts that Musescore 3.62 currently use, are OK for some things but miss some of the more beautiful and powerful instrument sounds that VST provides. That is why I wondered if I could somehow bring VST sounds into the program.
I realize that as you explained, if I want to write an adaptation of a song into sheet music with a particular .sf2 instrument sound, then export it as a MIDI into BIAB, Reaper or some other program to replace the .sf2 sound with a VST sound (after a big learning curve), I suppose I could do so. What happens then? Can I export it as a MIDI file from that other program and re-import it into Musescore with the VST sound intact? I suspect I cannot! If there is no "resident" .sf2 instrument sound in MuseScore 3.62 to use, I doubt if I can bring the sound in, even as a MIDI file. That is why I asked if a VST sound could be re-created as an .sf2 soundfont so I could load it into Musescore. If I am wrong, please advise.
fg
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If you transfer MIDI back and forth, you will always have MIDI and it will play with whatever MIDI-player you have or in the program. I think transferring from BIAB to MuseScore will not help you much, if at all.
BIAB's forte is in creating accompaniment for songs, based upon the chord progressions that you give it.
It's important with BIAB to differentiate between MIDI tracks and RealTracks. You can supply MIDI tracks to BIAB and it will play them through a MIDI-player like a soundfont player, or with a VST instrument. Or more usually, you would supply BIAB with the chord progressions and BIAB will generate the MIDI for you. The playing process creates the audio, of course. With RealTracks, what BIAB does is use segments of pre-recorded playing by real musicians, using phrases that match the chords you supplied. BIAB uses some wizardry to make this remarkably smooth and realistic. Note, though, that as a rule RealTracks are not MIDI, they're audio, so you can't transfer them to another MIDI program(*), only to an audio program.
(*) There are some variances/exceptions to that, but they're too complex to worry about for now.
If this has piqued your interest, try listening to some of the songs on this website in the "User Showcase" forum, and to some of the songs made by Henry Clarke.
If you decide to try BIAB, there's no trial version, you need to order a version, but PG Music are good about a refund if you choose to cancel. There's also a "gotcha" that often causes confusion, in that the version called "Pro" is the entry-level version. It comes with a modest number of styles and RealTracks. Most people, sooner or later, get the UltraPak version, which comes with a huge amount. Curiously it's usually slightly cheaper to start with the Pro and upgrade than to start with the UltraPak. It's then not an insignificant amount of money, but if you use the RealTracks instead of VSTs, you would save on the latter, so it may work well for you.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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Thanks much for your continued explanations. From what has been said, it seems that .sf2 soundfonts cannot be replaced in MuseScore by VST sounds, because there is no program that will "save" a complete VST library into an .sf2 file. If not, I cannot bring the sound into Musescore 3.62.
Although Musescore 4.3 (a new version) can play VST sounds, it has a major flaw not yet fixed. It does not allow hairpins and dynamics marks to be edited for volume, so I cannot insert a < hairpin followed by a > hairpin into a score by setting the volumes to whatever I want. I am stuck with the pre-set volumes provided by the dynamics (33, 49, 64, 80, etc.). That is too wide a span for my use.
Anyway, thanks again for all your explanations. I will just keep looking for older .sf2 soundfonts that sound better that the ones that come with the program.
fg
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It sounds to me like you use musescore to create songs.
Musescore is notation software. Its purpose with having an ability to play your song is like print preview in a word processor. By playing you find wrong notes and missed accidentals.
Its purpose is to produce a score. Not a performance.
If you want to refine your composition to a fine degree or play with realistic expressions you need to just export the midi out of musescore and load it into reaper and then you can use a really good kontakt library with orchestral instruments including strings and articulations.
If you do not mind just entering your notes with a mouse into a piano roll instaed of as notation you could just use reaper.
If you are not a musician who plays and reads from sheet music, I wonder why you use a certain old version of musescore, or any notation program, at all. Maximum work for mininum reward? Yes you can find more soundfonts but you would be so much better off moving to reaper. Or cakewalk.
Warren
Last edited by Warren P; 07/06/24 09:19 AM.
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Musescore is notation software. Its purpose with having an ability to play your song is like print preview in a word processor. By playing you find wrong notes and missed accidentals.
Its purpose is to produce a score. Not a performance. The most recent versions of MuseScore are capable of producing a very good performance - especially when using the instruments that are supplied with it. If you want to refine your composition to a fine degree or play with realistic expressions you need to just export the midi out of musescore and load it into reaper and then you can use a really good kontakt library with orchestral instruments including strings and articulations. This is no longer the case. The same company that owns MuseScore owns StaffPad. The instruments have been ported from StaffPad to MuseScore, and access to the different articulations are accessible directly from MuseScore notation. If you are not a musician who plays and reads from sheet music, I wonder why you use a certain old version of musescore, or any notation program, at all. Maximum work for mininum reward? Yes you can find more soundfonts but you would be so much better off moving to reaper. Or cakewalk. If you are a composer who reads music notation, MuseScore allows you to input a music using music notation, and get playback. The most recent version supports VST3 instruments as well. However, as the OP noted, it doesn't seem to support dynamics for .sfz instruments that well. I know that better integration with .VST instruments is on the way, but doesn't seem to be there quite yet. For example, I just created a score in MuseScore, with a whole note tied across the bars and a hairpin underneath. It started at ppp and ended with ppp. For the sound, I chose VST3|Plogue Art et Technology|sforzando, which is a .sfz player. I chose various .sfz - some from Garritan libraries I owned, and others from free SoundFonts I'd acquired. For some of the instruments, I didn't get any sound playback. Others seemed to work fairly smoothly, while still others I could hear a distinct "stepping" sound at fff - about 8 steps per bar. So hairpin support for .sfz instruments was uneven. On the other hand, choosing the built-in sounds ( SoundFonts|MS Basic or Muse Sounds) gave good results. The question I have is: What instruments can't you find in the supplied MuseScore library? It's got good coverage of the orchestral instruments and most of the basic keys (piano, organ, celesta, harpsichord, electric pianos) and guitars (nylon, steel string, electric, bass).
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Although Musescore 4.3 (a new version) can play VST sounds, it has a major flaw not yet fixed. It does not allow hairpins and dynamics marks to be edited for volume, so I cannot insert a < hairpin followed by a > hairpin into a score by setting the volumes to whatever I want. This is the kind of adjustment to dynamics that is probably better handled in a DAW or BIAB than in MuseScore. BIAB and probably all DAWs allow "automation" and/or note editing precisely to allow the written notes to be interpreted closer to a real performance. By constraining yourself to the use of hairpins, you may be making things more difficult for yourself.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
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By constraining yourself to the use of hairpins, you may be making things more difficult for yourself. Precisely. My old man, may he rest in peace, used to say "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". DAWs are not scary. It will take you 20 minutes of youtube videos to learn enough to do way more arrangement, composition, and musical expression in a DAW than you ever could in a notation program. MuseScore is wonderful for band leaders who need to score and provide written sheet music for their choirs, orchestras, and bands. It's not a performance oriented music (audio) generator tool.
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I've read that MuseScore 4.4 will be getting improvements to dynamics, although it looks like it's focused on the internal sounds.
There's someone working on improving the UI for creating dynamics, although I don't know if/when it'll be folded into the main code branch:
https://musescore.org/en/user/5201410/blog/2024/07/01/gsoc-2024-dynamics-popup-week-5?source=https://vi-control.net/community
There are some people who are able to create their songs completely in BiaB, and there are others who can do all their work in MuseScore.
The problem with using one tool to do everything is that there are things that tool isn't going to be able to do.
To me, MuseScore offers some really good orchestral instruments, and a nice notation-based interface. But if you want to create your own sounds, there are easier tools to make that happen.
Plus, it locks you out of using tools like BiaB. Why notate a bass or guitar when BiaB can give you RealTracks with an excellent performance.
That's the advantage of a DAW - you can take files from multiple sources (BiaB, MuseScore, etc.) and assemble a finished product there. Most DAWs allow MIDI editing using piano roll notation. That's a bit off-putting if you're used to notation, but really efficient once you get used to it.
Since you don't have a DAW, why not have a look at Audacity? It's recently added a lot of features that make it a very usable DAW. Audacity is now owned by the same company what owns MuseScore. You can just drag and drop your audio tracks into Audacity and edit them there.
The main main issue I find with using Audacity as a DAW is that it's slow, and doesn't seem to support MIDI editing.
PG Music even has their own DAW, RealBand.
While there are learning curves to using DAWs, they are far outweighed by the benefits of using one. It allows you to use your various tools for what they do best, instead of making one single tool try to do things that it's not necessarily good at.
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