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Rusty//J3.
fwiw in my first tech job when i was very very young after uni...
regularly us techs would meet down the pubs in london and discuss at length various future technologies...both hardware and software.
long before the net we discussed a lot of future tech like machine intelligence and one day there would be a connected world and various other topics.
just loads of future tech topics.
at uni where lots of us were educated also were lively sessions with futurists and profs.
so yes i'm aware re AI and its potential to disrupt markets etc etc.
thus....NO i dont have my head in the sand...lol.
as i'm married to a canadian lady of course i'm going to be biased towards seeing pg do well in a very competitive market.
which is why i make lots of (hopefully usefull..) feature suggestions re bb and rb.
bottom line i'm very interested as to how pg will incorporate various aspects of AI into their products....haveing worked in the past in tech i'm well aware that a tech company has to continue to innovate.
in fact ive stated such in the past on these very forums.
maybe a seperate thread should be started with the title...
'how would pg users like AI to be incorporated into bb and rb over the short and long term as to features'.
it could be a very interesting exchange of ideas.
in the interim going back to the GUI...maybe more people could post graphics like Roberts nice graphics idea... illustrating how they would like a new gui to look like.
does that make sense ? then people can discuss the various gui approaches from a user perspective ?
you see its new users that concern me.
ie what can be done with the current gui to attract many more new users
to bb (and rb.).
Mario.
i'm sure many users agree with your product suggestions.
and they make perfect sense.
frankly i dont care whether bb or rb whatever.. i just...as ive said in the past dont want to flit tween various apps to do a song....reason being for ages ive flitted tween bb AND rb AND reaper...like a bee...lol....its a time waster when i'm in 'the zone' wanting to get song ideas down fast.
i hope i make some sense.
happiness to all and a great 2025.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/09/25 08:35 AM.
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Here's how the Track view could look The Left side is an information/controls for the current track selected. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AamHglw.png) Robert 
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+1
Minor correction:
"Here's how the Track view should look."
Also simple "arm" > record for basic audio recording. Function is there, process is convoluted.
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I say could, because I'm only giving PCM and everyone else, I view of how it could look. ( Think it should look a lot like this!) I may be missing something that would be needed, as you stated: "Arm" Record arm for each track. That's a great catch, and yes it's needed. Please if anyone else see's something missing, speak up! Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/10/25 04:09 PM.
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Here are a bunch:
There should be a big "+" to add new tracks on demand.
Right click > Delete Track > confirm. (3 clicks)
Track zoom should be achievable by "pulling" edge of the track. With option to either zoom in / out dynamically (all tracks), or individual tracks.
Volume node editing in T.View there is a new request for this in wishlist.
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 01/10/25 04:27 PM.
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Robert.
good pics.
re track info on left hand side.
i like a wide waveform view otherwise scrolling sideways lots.,
as such i assume the track info can be hidden ?
the prob i have is some daws on the left hand side...it takes up too much real estate away from the waveforms for my liking.
Robert i tested a bunch of daws recently as i do each year...
i found many 'cluttered'.
the challenge is a GUI that makes the user very productive without looking
too cluttered.
i would love to see a mockup of tracks view with also...
(all hidden and shown at users behest.)
..a lyric track.
..a tempo track
..a markers track maybe ??
..a chords track
(making chord view redundant and saveing user flitting tween various views....drives me nuts in lots of music apps flitting around.))
all above updateable.
you might disagree Robert but the concept i suggest is bb tracks view
become a song creators central 'WORK CENTRE'....
to save lots of flitting around the app.
so a person 'in the song creation zone' can work very fast as the ideas flow.
hope i make sense.
i'm sure some will disagree...lol.
(btw i'm useless at doing graphic layouts so have at it.
note in the past Mcity has done some pretty neat graphics.)
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/10/25 05:24 PM.
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@Rustyspoon# "There should be a big "+" to add new tracks on demand."
"Right click > Delete Track > confirm. (3 clicks)"How about a right click on a mouse, that opens a menu that has the following:Delete selected track Add New Track (In selecting this it ask above or below existing track, then ask how many tracks) "Track zoom should be achievable by "pulling" edge of the track. With option to either zoom in / out dynamically (all tracks), or individual tracks." Yes but the user should first select the tracks then pull the edge."Volume node editing in T.View there is a new request for this in wish-list." (You mean automation) Yes@justanoldmuso "re track info on left hand side.
i like a wide waveform view otherwise scrolling sideways lots.,
as such i assume the track info can be hidden?" Should be an option to hide"i would love to see a mockup of tracks view with also...
(all hidden and shown at users behest.) "People should just use their imagination
It's a lot of work to put these images together (I believe a picture says a 1000 words)"..a lyric track. ..a tempo track ..a markers track maybe ?? ..a chords track (making chord view redundant and saveing user flitting tween various views....drives me nuts in lots of music apps flitting around.))" Should be optional, but also be a seperate floatable windows, that can be placed anywhere (Outside the main interface) you want and stay there."you might disagree Robert but the concept i suggest is bb tracks view
become a song creators central 'WORK CENTRE'....
to save lots of flitting around the app.
so a person 'in the song creation zone' can work very fast as the ideas flow.
hope i make sense."That's where the request for a manageable DUI comes in.
It will allow a user to set up things how he wants and uses BiaB, that also why I think Realband should be combined with BiaB.There are some large company's using accounting software, that company would purchase the base software. And the add ons they they need, for example: Payroll to it, and it becomes part of the program. to start they could make the following as add ons: 1) Ear Training 2) Practice 3) Conductor Some may not use it others may! PGM could do the same with BiaB by having better integration by combining BiaB with RB and offering add ons in the future. Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/10/25 06:12 PM.
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"How about a right click on a mouse, that opens a menu that has the following: Delete selected track Add New Track (In selecting this it ask above or below existing track, then ask how many tracks)" That would work too. "+" is common"Yes but the user should first select the tracks then pull the edge." Not really. Feature is called track auto zoom. Without selecting particular track, "pulling" any edge, zooms all dynamically. Selecting track will make track zoom independently from the rest.
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lets not forget in the discussion new users to music production.
advanced users who have been around the daw block for many years might be used to what is being suggested...and yes they are elegant ideas...but new users often today are sooo very different.
they often have a 'gimme now i dont wanna even read a manual' attitude.
you see it time and again on recording forums.
and it seems often they will drop an app quickly as a result.
in conclusion its very very difficult imho to design a gui that satisfies both seasoned and new users.
i'd like a buck for each time a new user has said to me 'i just wanna make music and not be a tech'. by 'tech' this can include for the new user getting to grips even with even the best designed gui re ease of use.
eg in industry we used to design user screen layouts ad nauseum based on users feedbacks and desires but often the result was the user base couldnt agree and huge amounts of time were wasted.
it was like herding cats.
so Robert the challenge is coming up with gui designs so 'herding cats' syndrome doesnt occur.
fyi user Mcity in the past has taken some of my product suggestions and produced outstanding graphics examples.
one doing exactly what you said ie merging some aspects of bb and rb
ie a new view grid like idea where a user can easily change tempo anywhere and put shots and holds anywhere and silence a particular instrument anywhere and other things etc etc. i loved it.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/11/25 04:07 AM.
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justanoldmuso....
For the world of me I can't understand what are you trying to say, but most importantly, how does it relate to subject. Must be a second language thing.
"in conclusion its very very difficult imho to design a gui that satisfies both seasoned and new users."
Who told you that?? If you are not aware, most people in the "industry", figured that out by 2025.
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As I said Skin, movable modules, custom meus and icon options gives whatever theme/layout the user wants: ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=29862&filename=roberttw-gui.png)
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"As I said Skin, movable modules, custom meus and icon options gives whatever theme/layout the user wants"
But seems justanoldmuso has difficulty of grasping this concept, while it was said over, and over and over again in different wording in several threads, not just this one.
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...and yes they are elegant ideas...but new users often today are sooo very different.
they often have a 'gimme now i dont wanna even read a manual' attitude.
you see it time and again on recording forums.
and it seems often they will drop an app quickly as a result.
in conclusion its very very difficult imho to design a gui that satisfies both seasoned and new users.
i'd like a buck for each time a new user has said to me 'i just wanna make music and not be a tech'. by 'tech' this can include for the new user getting to grips even with even the best designed gui re ease of use. I find that today's users want to do things the easy way, many if them don't even know anything about music. They want an AI app that they can tell it want they want & "BANG!" it's there. then they tell everyone that they wrote the song. I sorry, that is just their problem and should not stop Biab's Development. PG cannot cater to everyone. Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/11/25 09:19 AM.
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justanoldmuso....
For the world of me I can't understand what are you trying to say, but most importantly, how does it relate to subject. Must be a second language thing.
"in conclusion its very very difficult imho to design a gui that satisfies both seasoned and new users."
Who told you that?? If you are not aware, most people in the "industry", figured that out by 2025. Exactly! This whole GUI thing is not new anymore! Most modern software gets this right and has been since the late 90s! Apple wrote the book on it. And not just in their GUI designs. They literally wrote the book! It is NOT difficult to design a great GUI. You just need to hire great GUI designers. This argument sounds like someone building a house and saying how hard it is to install plumbing and then you find out they've hired a bricklayer to do the plumbing! 
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Yes, bring in a new team of modern GUI and workflow designers to have a clean look at it all.
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gimme a break...jeesh...imho its not trivial to design a gui that works for all users.
before telling me i'm wrong or pilloring me..i respectfully suggest you all come up with a new daw gui design,..then post it on a recording site where loads of studios hang out like gearspace and other sites and see what everyone says.
various end users in various industries always complain about gui designs....
no matter how much thought has gone into the design.
another complexity is coming up with a design that works for us vision impaired also. its particularly difficult when an app has a ton of features.
as to bringing in gui pro designers...great idea but lets see how they design a gui
given all bb's complex features.
imho it will be a challenge for even the best.
as to todays designs imho theres too much 'flash'.
and i'm 'still' left wondering 'how do i do xyz in this app'....
i know i'll get pilloried some more so be it ...but i rather like the rb gui now some adjustments have been done re ease of use but thats just one opinion.
imho when it comes to gui's like many things in life its difficult to arrive at a perfect solution. eg name me the perfect car design...lol....even given there are many pro car designers out there. dont get me started on the new screens in cars.
which people often complain about....and often say to me 'bring back the old rotary dials'. my wife says 'todays cars all look like jelly beans'...lol....'boring'.
om over and out.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/11/25 11:19 AM.
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"before telling me i'm wrong or pilloring me..i respectfully suggest you all come up with a new daw gui design,"
You are wrong for even suggesting this.
We, users are not a part of a company, nor (likely most of us) are GUI designers. It's the company's job to do this stuff. But to user defense, if you have not followed closely, there had been plenty of great ideas offered, both graphical and workflow, mock ups, videos, discussions through the years.... including this very thread.
If company did the right thing and made fully modular and skin-able design, as your buddy musocity said:
" movable modules, custom menus and icon options gives whatever theme/layout the user wants"
Then we could have a discussion about user designed layouts, icons, buttons, colors and fonts. This is not available to us, nor PGM offered a challenge for the best design to be implemented.
--------
I am sorry robertw, that your great thread got derailed with this trivial nonsense. You are on the right path and you are not alone who want a common sense solution for outdated UI.
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@Justanoldmuso You are correct in that it’s not trivial to design a GUI that works for all users.” “..i respectfully suggest you all come up with a new daw gui design,..then post it on a recording site where loads of studios hang out like gearspace and other sites and see what everyone says. “Do you really think this would work?
Your answer to that is below“various end users in various industries always complain about gui designs....
no matter how much thought has gone into the design.” “another complexity is coming up with a design that works for us vision impaired also. its particularly difficult when an app has a ton of features.”Then they need to address it!“as to bringing in gui pro designers...great idea but lets see how they design a gui
given all bb's complex features.
imho it will be a challenge for even the best.”They will need to face that challenge, sooner or lateras to todays designs imho theres too much 'flash'.
Can’t you even see, what is we are trying to do here!
and i'm 'still' left wondering 'how do i do xyz in this app'....With how the program is now, we are addressing it, with ideas that could help!Do you even realize that many people in the world today, will not even use BiaB because of how they say “It’s to bloated and looks very hard to use”Just go on many of the DAW forums and you will see that many of the DAW users are asking for features in their DAW that can do what BiaB is doing. I really think it will not be long before some DAW company does it!You at times, post comments completely supporting some of the GUI changes and sometimes you think it’s a lost cause for us to ask for it. I’m sorry, because I think many of your statements as why not to do it, is not a valid reason. For example:
You said “By changing the Look of BiaB, that will turn away new users”. Actually BiaB is already doing just that, some purchase it and give it a try anyway and give up.
I know, I was one of them. I first got BiaB back in 2017 and was very frustrated for many reasons, mainly the GUI, tried it a few more times upgrading (2019 & 21), hoping some of the things was fixed.
Now a few months back I decided to try it again and became more active on this forum asked a few questions. But decided to once again to upgrade the Base BiaB to 2025, and see if any things have been fix!
Nothing fixed, so as it stands now, if the GUI is not updated and the minor incomplete things are not address, they will lose me as a user. Think of how many others have done this or will do, if these problems go on.
Fortunately, I did find a way to remove the icons (Features I do not use, but are still there and can be access via the menu) and just with that I’m making some progress with BiaB.
Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/11/25 03:03 PM.
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…… You just need to hire great GUI designers. …. Yes, bring in a new team of modern GUI and workflow designers to have a clean look at it all. I do not think New GUI designers is needed. They have just been building on what it started with. They need to come to the realization that the GUI needs to be updated! Robert
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…… You just need to hire great GUI designers. …. Yes, bring in a new team of modern GUI and workflow designers to have a clean look at it all. I do not think New GUI designers is needed. They have just been building on what it started with. They need to come to the realization that the GUI needs to be updated! Robert FWIW I think the entire code needs to be updated, modernized and rewritten. YMMV
Today I bought a doughnut without the sprinkles. Diets are hard!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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