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Hi dcuny, I've just been reading through your comments to Josie and felt that, in the interests of balance, I should provide a different argument to a couple of your thoughts. I don't know why but I get the feeling that you enjoy a friendly debate  That's why I have written the below. I don't usually enter into differences of opinion on forums but I applaud good, healthy debate! So I'm going to take a risk. I hope that I'm right in that you too like debates. If I am wrong, what I've written below might sound antagonistic or arrogant. If that is the case, please keep in mind that I did not write it with any intention of being either Quote:
I'm not a huge fan of songs with too many rhymes - the kill the "naturalness" of the language. And you've got a chorus filled with -ide rhymes in the chorus. Of course, that's a personal preference. I don't think many here agree with me.
To my mind, rhymes are the single most important tool that a lyricist has to enhance the meaning of words through the development of lyric movement and this, in turn, adds an extra dimension to a lyric's emotional delivery. I like Josie's AAABB rhyme scheme (three perfect rhymes followed by a near-rhyme couplet). To my ears, it does its job of enhancing lyric content really well.
Let me explain what I mean.
The human mind likes balance and at the end of the first two lines, the rhymes are paired and this causes a feeling of completion (semi-completion is a better term because other factors, that I'll mention a little later, are also in play). A point of rhyme-balance is created. Josie then sets us up with her lyrics to repeat the process but this time she surprises us. Instead of rhyming the 3rd line with the 4th line, Josie introduces a line that doesn't rhyme. This draws attention to the line and causes the listener to re-focus (just in case s/he's feeling comfortable with predictability). In essence, the 4th non-rhyming line creates instability and this adds emotional momentum to the lyric. It keeps the lyric moving and keeps the listener's attention by using the unexpected. The problem, though, is that the verse needs to feel complete for it to end. At the moment, at the end of the 4th phrase, the verse cannot end with a sense of fulfillment. Completion requires rhyme. Josie solves this by adding another "B" line. The really clever part, though, is that the added rhyme is not a perfect rhyme. The assonance rhyme of frayed/grace is a skilled lyrical move. Near rhyme gives a sense of completion but not an absolute, "locked-in" sense of fulfillment. It still leaves the listener hanging a little. To my mind, this assonance rhyme enhances the emotional content delivered by the "surprise" created by not rhyming lines 3 and 4. Josie delivers all this in a 5-phrase stanza. Using an odd number of phrases also adds to the unbalanced nature of the verse. For me, the lyric content serves the format of the lyric structure very well. In this sense, I see it as excellent prosody. Also, using "provide" as an intransitive verb in its future tense is, to my ears, a masterstroke; yet another little kick of instability is given to listeners and it does its bit to enhance lyric content even further. For me, this lyric radiated with emotion because of the way it moves. (I always read lyrics aloud so that I can feel their impact on my senses.) I believe that any change to Josie's lyric structure would weaken it significantly.
Josie then sets out on the journey again in verse two and skillfully delivers another emotional roller-coaster ride: complete with "come" being used intransitively in the parallel 3rd phrase! By the end of the song, I feel satisfied that my journey through the song has been worthwhile.
As a contrast, had the verse been AAABBB in structure, it would have felt balanced and, for me, this would have weakened the reflective, emotional nature of the lyrics significantly. By the end of the current first verse, I hear and feel lyrics that have delivered the thinking of a person who is questioning their beliefs and even their existence. To my way of thinking, Josie's work is incredibly well woven and is, in many ways, showcase lyric writing. Moreover, it delivered me into the chorus for a big payoff. I couldn't help but notice that the chorus is a nicely balanced four sturdy lines of AAAA rhyme. This is a very stable, very solid rhyme scheme and is a perfect fit for the resolve that the singer anticipates. This difference between lyric instability in the verses and lyric stability in the chorus gave me a good feeling of contrast.
Josie's use of lyric meter also keeps us on the edge of our seats. Phrase 1 sets the pace and has a good, comfortable 4 feet to it (just like "Mary had a little lamb"). Phrase 2, though, only has 3 feet (like the second line of "Mary had a little lamb") and this keeps the lyric pushing forward into the next phrase. This second phrase, though, rhymes with phrase 1. Because it rhymes a little short of the mark, it is unbalanced and this is yet another tool for enhancing emotion. Phrase 3 is also 3 feet. A feeling of acceleration now sets in (remember the pace was set by the first phrase of 4 feet and we've now had 2 phrases of 3 feet). This feeling of increasing lyric speed is enhanced by rhyming phrase 3 with phrase 2. What a great place to set a lyric that requires a feeling of intensity and anguish! I think "Life can be unkind" is a great fit. Because of the setting, and the phrases before it, I heard this line as "things happen that I have no control over". The last two phrases now begin the process of lyric deceleration and focus attention on what is being said. They also set us up to feel an increased pace in the chorus.
Ok. Time for me to get off that soap box now! (Please keep in mind that these are just my thoughts.)
Some people write music because if feels and sounds right and some people write lyrics in exactly the same way. I, on the other hand, enjoy analyzing what makes good material work (both musically and lyrically). The internet is terrific for looking up songs and lyrics. I then take the lessons I've learned on-board and try to apply them in my own way to my music: sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not. I follow the Pat Pattision school of lyric writing. In case you haven't heard his name before, Pat is Professor of Lyric Writing and Poetry at Berklee College of Music. Many regard him as one of the world's leading authorities on lyric writing. I hold him in high esteem and have been to a number of his weekend workshops. (That being said, though, I realize that I still have a long, long way to go when I look at some of the amazing lyrics that people have written over the years.) Pat's three books are my most valuable songwriting tools. They are starting to become tattered and torn from having been read and flicked through a million times.
Lastly, I must say that I wholeheartedly commend you on your comments. Your posts glow with professionalism. I found those comments that you made about my song ("How Do You Do It") a very valuable resource. The fact that you are prepared to take so much time to present your thoughts so clearly to those of us who are seeking critiques of our work is a tremendous asset to these forums. I can't speak for Josie, but I, personally, value all your input. Please do not stop
Best regards,
Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 11/05/10 08:03 PM.
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Hey Dan,
Looking forward to your next one. As you are, I'm picky on how things sound. Of course there's always room for improvement. This one was seriously mixed but I don't claim to be more than a student of that at this point. And every small triumph is good in that learning process.
"If you're into mixing, you put forth an effort to really learn how to do it."
I don't appreciate your talking down to me. You don't know what effort I am putting forth. It might be wise to remember that your opinion is simply that - your opinion. I have always and will continue to try and be supportive of you in your efforts because I respect your talent but I won't be talked down to by you or anyone else. Got it.
Daisy,
Thanks for listening. The mid range is always a challenge, I think even more so for a female voice. I would've like to have had a lower guitar but since I don't play electric guitar then I used what I had available in my RT's. I'm proud of this one. I like the way I panned it. So far I see you are quite the critiquer but I've yet to hear your work. I'm really anticipating hearing a song of yours using RB.
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Hi dcuny,
Thanks for listening - I think. grin. First off, I will warn you that I am not going to be as gracious as Noel about someone playing armchair quarterback and taking it upon yourself to rewrite my entire song without being asked. This is not your faith or your song. I stated very clearly that I wrote this song earlier this year to cheer myself up during a hard time. I expressed my faith and my song in my way. It makes me happy that others relate to it. I don't like the Spice Girls but they sold millions of records without me buying one. If you don't like it or understand it then I would suggest moving on rather than trying to critique it.
It's one thing to make a suggestion or two. You are coming off to me like one of those people who get off on critiquing other people's work just for the sake of doing it. That's going a bit far. Especially from someone who as yet has not posted a single example of your own original work using RB. I tend to take suggestions more seriously from someone whose work I respect.
I have been writing songs a very long time. Is every one a master piece - absolutely not. I don't pretend to know it all because life is learning. Am I a famous songwriter no but I've had cuts and publishing contracts. And I typically don't mind criticism too much because I've learned to follow my gut and If I don't agree ignore it. I worked long and hard to learn the craft of songwriting and paid my dues so if you're looking to debate - I don't share the need.
I'll leave it with this, even if your intentions were somehow well meant, I really do not want another indepth analysis of my work from you unless I ask for it after I hear yours.
Have a blessed day.
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Noel,
You sir, are not only a scholar but a gentleman.
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Noel and Josie....well said!
Marty
Music is what feelings sound like.
Band In A Box (current) Sonar Producer X2, Windows 7, 16 Gigs Ram, Quad Core, AMD Processor, Alesis MK2 Monitors, Roland Quad Capture Audio Interface,
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Me oh my... sorry Josie if my observations and comments were taken as being critical. I certainly didn't mean to be unfair or sound harsh. From now on in, it's praise and praise only. Daisy 
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Daisy,
No one said praise and praise only except you.
If you're only willing to post if your critical observations and comments are agreed with then I'd say the problem is yours.
I'm only saying if you are going to do so much critiquing of every one elses work including mine - I'd like to hear some of yours.
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Quote:
Daisy,
No one said praise and praise only except you.
If you're only willing to post if your critical observations and comments are agreed with then I'd say the problem is yours.
I'm only saying if you are going to do so much critiquing of every one elses work including mine - I'd like to hear some of yours.
Well Josie...I'm a little late to the party, but let me say that I loved your song. Especially the harmonies and your use of the minor chord structure. I usually listen to a song first without looking at the lyrics just to get the "feel" of the song, and the whole time I was listening the first time through I kept thinking how the harmonies reminded me of Crosby, Stills (CSNY)..I'm a big fan! . I was also picking up a little bit of Stevie Nicks (also a big fan) in your vocal. Not too shabby, girl! Some nice stuff there. Keep up the good work. You'll just get better and better with every song.
As for the naysayers (the after-the-fact, "Monday mornng quarterbacks" of production and engineering,etc)...our buddy Dan (Shockwave) had one of the best comments I've heard on the subject, and I'm paraphrasing, but basically once your song is completed and put out there critiques are meaningless. You're obviously NOT incompetent to be writing and recording so what's the point in second guessing your creative decisions? As I've said before (not popularly either) just because you put a song on the User Showcase doesn't mean you're inviting a critical analysis necessarily...unless you request it. I thought the purpose of this forum was to show what different users are creating with the software. I'm personally more interested in the users inspiration for the song, and a little background on the lyrics. "A song can be written, produced, arranged, mixed, and mastered a million ways and it's all subjective personal taste. Not better or worse, right or wrong...just different." (...that quote from my own producer who had a wall full of platinum and a penned #1 hit to back it up) So all that being said...just keep creating what YOU like the way YOU like it and forget the rest. I personally like what your doing. Keep 'em coming.
Bob
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Quote:
First off, I will warn you that I am not going to be as gracious as Noel about someone playing armchair quarterback and taking it upon yourself to rewrite my entire song without being asked.
You are completely correct: I failed to pay attention to why you wrote the song, and provided unasked-for feedback. I apologize, and won't do it again.
Quote:
It's one thing to make a suggestion or two. You are coming off to me like one of those people who get off on critiquing other people's work just for the sake of doing it.
I understand where you're coming from. Again, I'm sorry, and I apologize. That's not the spirit in which it was offered.
Quote:
I have been writing songs a very long time.
There's no need to be defensive. Your work speaks for itself. I'm not looking for debate.
Quote:
I'll leave it with this, even if your intentions were somehow well meant, I really do not want another in-depth analysis of my work from you unless I ask for it after I hear yours.
They were well meant. I'm sorry they weren't received that way - but that's my fault, not yours.
And I assure you, you won't be asking after you hear any of my RT compositions. 
Peace!
Last edited by dcuny; 11/05/10 10:37 PM.
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Quote:
I don't appreciate your talking down to me. You don't know what effort I am putting forth. It might be wise to remember that your opinion is simply that - your opinion. I have always and will continue to try and be supportive of you in your efforts because I respect your talent but I won't be talked down to by you or anyone else. Got it.
As usual, text can mask intention. I NEVER meant to talk down to you Josie. I was really speaking in general terms. But I suppose I was wrong to assume what you're trying hard to do and what you're not. I've never really read you speak about anything when it comes to mixing. Song structure, lyrical content yes, but not so much as a word about mixing, be it other peoples work or your own. I guess I missed it. So I just assumed you're a writer primarily and not into mixing. And that's completely fine too. That's one of the huge benefits of software like biab- it allows people to put instrumentation to their writing and not really be bogged down with the chores of mixing if they don't want to. I took you as a tunesmith really, not as a production person who goes all too nuts over everything in that area. I'm sorry to make that assumtion. I just figured you weren't really interested in hearing my thoughts on it, which is why I suggested there's a wealth of information out there to further that cause if you wanted.
My initial post to your song was short and sweet. I could kick myself for becoming even remotely involved once again in specifics. I will NEVER do this again. But yeah, when I post my next song you can twist the screws if it'll make you feel better. But here and now, I'm done voicing any opinions or advice. I'll continue to post songs because I think it's good for potential customers to hear what can be done with this awesome software from the users. But a dialog? OVER.
Dan
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OK, now I think I understand what happened here, thanks to Hawgly's clarifying comments.
I have always just assumed that any work posted was "work in progress," and that while praise is certainly wished for, constructive criticism is also desired, to ultimately make better recordings. I now note that the new forum is "showcase," which implies a finished product , as Hawgly suggests. I also re-read Josie's initial post, and it does NOT request criticism or suggestions -- she's satisfied. Heck, maybe there should be TWO forums -- "Showcase" and "Workshop."
So, (even though it seems obvious that most of the postings here need some work here and there), I will be cautious in future to only make such comments if explicitly requested by the poster. I guess that I, and some others, stepped over a line that we couldn't see, Sorry, won't happen again.
Daisy...
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Thank you Bob, you made my night.
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Dan,
I don't twist the screws on anyone that's just not me. I am a huge fan of yours. I think you are one of the most talented writers on the forum. I hope you are not done with your opinions and advice. Misunderstanding. Apology accepted and offered.
Last edited by Sundance; 11/05/10 11:42 PM.
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All good Josie. Still though, I'll hold my tongue from now on. There is a forum here called tips and tricks. Maybe I'll check in there to offer further advice if someone asks. But not here anymore. Keep writing those great songs.
Dan
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On the issue of craft and use of the software...well done.
On the issue of religion, music, philosophy and 'other', I'll take a pass.
Of course I'm of the same opinion with Plato through Ayn Rand, from whoever through Blake. Don't use anything other than 'argument' to make a foray into a debate..
I don't appreciate a public forum as a platform for any type of religion, preaching or whatever. I understand it's hard not to do...
Good job, but for me, ethnocentric, and a bunch of other stuff.
I was never so sensitive about this, but I just pulled through after a tough 6 months and have a new point of view.
Anyways, not enough women here, and I hope you keep working and thinking, and looking at life ...through the eyes of a person not influenced by anything but nature and your observations of it as a person devoid of contact with the written word...
Just my 2 pence worth...from several deathbeds....
Keep smilin..
Oh, and no sense preaching....I'm impervious. LOL.
{I sat with a child last week,
She was 12 almost,
Leukemia they said...
Her Mom's heart was broke,
"Why... God?", her Daddy asked..
"Nature has her course",
and she is God,
Flood, Famine or Fire,
Life's not changed by us,
Nor by our prayers,
Just Because.}
If God listened, some church would have 300 year old healed, happy, productive members. The reality is, no matter who you are, you die at the same time as the rest...the question is ...
you get it. I don't need to ask.
At the end of the day
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
But who calls dat livin' when no gal'll give in
To no man what's nine hundred years
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
...Heck, maybe there should be TWO forums -- "Showcase" and "Workshop."...
Daisy...
You know, that's a very good idea. PG Music - what about it?
When I comment on peoples' songs I choose my words carefully because:
(1) I'm usually unsure as to what proficiency level the poster is at. For example, it would be impolite and destructive to heavily criticise a song's structure, arrangement, or recording, etc. when it's a song from a novice who has in fact far exceeded the levels usually associated with someone starting out. You wouldn't slam a seven year old for writing a brilliant poem because they're not (yet) up to the standard of a world renowned published prizewinner.
(2) I'm also unsure (unless the poster makes things clear) as to whether the poster is putting up a finished project or a work in progress they would genuinely like some help with.
I know I would quite like to post WIP projects when I feel I'm not doing justice to a piece, or lost my way with it, and would really like some outside input to help me carry out some surgery. Other times I feel I've finished a piece and very happy with it, i.e. I'm not going to tear it all apart and insert a middle eight, but I'm still open to comments about, say, the mastering.
If the two forums don't come to pass then I've made a mental note to make it clear when I next post a new song to state whether it's in WIP or Finished Goods!
John
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Hi John Conley,
It was really sweet of you to listen knowing that you don't care for the genre's message. This forum is my "home" not to worry, I'm not going anywhere. I appreciate your posts and enjoy that quirky humor too much. grin.
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Interesting and (IMHO) healthy dialog going on here. My thoughts follow:
1) no matter who you are or how good (or bad) you may be, once you put your work on public display, you certainly WILL be judged by those who see/hear it. If that is not OK, then it may be too risky to post in a public forum. Once you post, you lose control and you have to accept whatever happens after that.
2) There is a wide disparity of skill level among those who will review your work, and people tend to judge you as a peer, whether you are or not
3) in a perfect world people would take some pains to determine another's level of proficiency before passing judgment. As has been stated already, it is inappropriate to judge a hobbyist's work by the same standard used to judge a pro's work. Even among the pros, there is much disagreement about what constitutes quality.
4) as a general rule, praise is in order when a person stretches past yesterday's accomplishment, for that means progress is being made. But there is no way for the average listener to know if these submissions are the half-hearted efforts of somebody capable of better, or the whole-hearted efforts of somebody who is fully immersed in a growth spurt.
5) Free speech is a two way street. We are free to submit, and we are also free to critique. Punishing those who critique is no different than punishing those who submit. Both are equally offensive. May we all learn to walk both sides of the street with kindness and encouragement, but without patronizing.
6) honesty is generally well received as long as it is served up with a little grace. A pompous put-down will be seen by most as unnecessary and rude. However, people vary widely in where they draw the line between honesty and brutality. All who post here should realize that responses will be based on the responder's standards, not the poster's.
7) some people are hard-wired to praise while others seem hard-wired to criticize. This is normal. It is unrealistic to expect only positive reinforcement. Average the best and worst comments and find a functional reality somewhere in between... one that neither inflates your ego or deflates it, but which gives a new basis for moving forward.
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John Skyline and Pat,
Quite thoughtful.
Hopefully this will end this.
For the record, personally, a constructive friendly suggestion or two doesn't bother me. I may agree, disagree, use it now, later, or never.
However, I think when someone offers a critique that person should be mature enough to realize that the one being critiqued is under no obligation and may not agree with the critiquer's point of view.
Reacting with statements such as "oh, I see it's praise and praise only" is nothing more than an insulting cheap shot for not being agreed with. It has no place in grown up discussions no matter what anyone's level of expertise.
And finally I can not fathom why anyone would choose to spend time rewriting someone else's entire song when their time would be so much better spent working on their own ideas. It's much more fun to do your own.
Imho, it's a matter of common courtesy. And as an aside, it is a users showcase forum. Emphasis on users.
That's all I have to say on this. I'm done. If someone wants to start a new topic solely for discussion of critiques then I kindly ask that you do so and let this end here. Thank you.
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The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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