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The old joke , to shut up a guitar player put a piece of music in front of him, was based a little on fact that a lot of guitar players never learn to read. I found it helped me tremendously and I practice my reading every day.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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The old joke , to shut up a guitar player put a piece of music in front of him, was based a little on fact that a lot of guitar players never learn to read. I found it helped me tremendously and I practice my reading every day. Which begs for a new joke; How do you shut up a sight reader? Take their sheet music and even their charts and then ask them to hang out and jam for a while. Don't tell them what the songs are or even the key it's in or what the progression is. Just ask them to play along with all of the other musicians. EDIT: Don't ask them to take a solo. There's no need to TOTALLY humiliate them. LOL
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 07/17/23 10:33 AM.
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Last edited by rharv; 07/17/23 11:19 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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We all base what we believe on our own life experiences and the outside influences that we encounter. When I look back at my childhood and remember the kids who took formal music lessons and then ask myself "how many of these people are still playing", then I could have died before I was 25 and had the answer to that question. Not a single one them played a note after high school and they couldn't even tell you how to build a major chord. (Hint; It's 1-3-5 of the major scale).
The only musicians who I knew who played instruments as a child and continued to play as an adult were the ones who never had a single music lesson. Many of them still play and perform today. They still couldn't tell you where the G note is on a Treble Clef.
Many of you may think I can't read music at all because of my stance on the issue but that wouldn't be true. I learned to read the treble clef by buying Mel Bay books before there was TAB. Years later after I enrolled my son in piano lessons I decided to learn basic piano so I could help him with his piano lessons. That meant I had to learn to read music in order to do that. I did and I played piano for about a year. Then I realized he didn't need my help and I stopped playing piano. He essentially ignores the piano now but he still plays guitar and a little mandolin and banjo. He HATES reading music and says he never learned a damn thing about playing music from taking years of music lessons. He said he learned about music by playing with me years after the lessons were over. I taught him basic music theory and how to play guitar. He still plays today.
I could go on about how many "musicians" I met who were formally trained who were no more musicians than I was a rocket scientist but I won't. Incompetent is the simplest way to put it.
Many instruments such as piano and wind instruments require that you learn to sight read. Stringed fretted instruments simply require you to pick up the damn thing and learn some chords and songs and develop your ear and then you can be as good as your commitment to practicing allows. Music theory is also easy to learn without reading a friggin' note. It's all about intervals and basic math.
It really pisses me off when numbskulls discourage would be musicians by telling them they have to learn an archaic system of music notation that doesn't even pertain to their instrument. Once again standard notations SUCKS when it comes to stringed fretted instruments. It's a total waste of time and that time could be better spent by simply learning how to PLAY.
Develop your ear. Listen to varied types of music. Learn songs by ear. Find a pickin' buddy.
It ain't rocket science. If it was then none of us would be able to play.
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<...snip...>
The only musicians who I knew who played instruments as a child and continued to play as an adult were the ones who never had a single music lesson. <...> Well, now you know one. I learned to read treble clef in elementary school, even though there were no instruments involved. It was part of a well-rounded education. I started on drums in Junior High School. I learned to read drum notation. Then, when the sax player's family moved and a sax rental became available, I switched to sax. I played in the junior and high school bands, and also one first sax in the all-state band every year. After school, I was in a little rock band. My first gig was for a Junior High School dance. There I was on stage, with my best buddies, playing the music we worked so hard to learn (by ear, back then they didn't publish rock and roll music). I looked off-stage, and that cute girl who didn't acknowledge my existence in English class was 'making eyes' at me. At the end of the night, they paid me money for the experience. That's when I said, “This is what I want to do for the rest of my life”. Now I'm past retirement age, and still doing it. I did have two real jobs in my life, while I was trying out what it was to be normal. I still played on the weekends. But I found “normal” isn't for me. I agree with you that every musician should develop his/her ears. And in school band, ear training was part of the curriculum. Your ears are your most important musical instrument.But I also insist that learning to read music and at least basic music theory is just as important. Reading and theory - allows me to learn songs faster
- allows me to learn and play songs I've never heard before
- allows me to improvise better, knowing what is safe and what is experimental
- allows me to create a second, passive stream of income making style and fake e-disks for Band-in-a-Box
- got me into better bands
- got me studio gigs in studios from locals to Motown in Detroit
The way I figure it is, every pop musician should: - Learn how to critically and analytically listen to music (a lifelong pursuit)
- learn to play drums at least the first dozen rudiments
- learn to read music and learn basic music theory
- learn to play by ear
- listen to many genres of music, not just your favorite or chosen genre
Of course, that's my opinion. But it's worked for me. Other than those two day experimental gigs, I have never been a wage slave to some ignorant boss or faceless corporation. I've made my living doing something I really enjoy doing. I don't take orders from anyone, but profit by my good decisions and hopefully learn from my bad ones. I've met with, jammed with and have been treated as an equal by giant stars in this industry. I've had hook-ups with plenty of beautiful girls all over this country, until I found the best one of all, whom I married. I'm way past retirement age, still gigging, and have no intention of quitting as long as I can pull a crowd. And yes, reading music and knowledge of music theory has helped me get here. So has developing my ears. Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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He just doesn't stop... Though this time I think you forgot to brag about your 15-20 dates a month. And how you play 37 instruments.  Are you just so old that you don't remember you have told us mere mortals your life story about 93 times already? Motown records, original Rare Earth...however the details go... I see you start with the braggadocio and tune out. You DID forget to tell us how you spend 27 hours a day making styles (with a link to buy them, of course!) and that you don't have a TV set in your house. I always like the part about the TV, complete with the inference that those of us who DO have TVs are a lesser human being than you. Your posts rarely add to the discussion beyond bragging about yourself and you telling us how you invented music. You are like that one loud guy sitting in every bar in the USA talking loud so everybody has no choice but to hear him. So annoying. I am happier every time you post that you didn't come to Herbstock. To the ignore list you go.
Last edited by eddie1261; 07/18/23 06:24 AM.
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We all base what we believe on our own life experiences and the outside influences that we encounter.
Yeah . And you seem to think only yours are real.
...an archaic system of music notation that doesn't even pertain to their instrument. Once again standard notations SUCKS when it comes to stringed fretted instruments. It's a total waste of time and that time could be better spent by simply learning how to PLAY.
Bullshit.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Notes,
I have tremendous respect for what you and others like you have accomplished. I hope your fingers stay nimble and your mind stays sharp so you can continue it for decades to come.
I'm not against people learning to read music. I'm against people telling wanna be guitarists, banjo players, mandoloin players, etc that they have to learn to read in order to be able to play. It's simply not true.
I do recommend every musician learn music theory. You don't have to read to learn it. Theory just opens up the world of music and helps you appreciate music even more. It takes the mystery out of music and you'll look at your instrument in a whole different way.
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..............................................
The only musicians who I knew who played instruments as a child and continued to play as an adult were the ones who never had a single music lesson. Many of them still play and perform today. They still couldn't tell you where the G note is on a Treble Clef. Bob, you don't know me personally but I am still reading music and playing.
........................................................
It really pisses me off when numbskulls discourage would be musicians by telling them they have to learn an archaic system of music notation that doesn't even pertain to their instrument. Once again standard notations SUCKS when it comes to stringed fretted instruments. It's a total waste of time and that time could be better spent by simply learning how to PLAY.
..................
I respectfully disagree with you. No you don't have to read music to be a good player, however reading music can open new avenues for you. Plus "archaic system of music notation that doesn't even pertain to their instrument" is not true. Music notation pertains to ALL instruments. IMHO the optimum musician is one whom can do both read music and play by ear. YMMV
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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IMHO the optimum musician is one whom can do both read music and play by ear.
YMMV
I agree completely.
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I just wanted to interrupt and jump in to say...
I love this thread! It's terrific!
Its like those discussions guitar players have where you have to have exactly the right guitar with exactly the right pickups with exactly the right strings plugged into exactly the right effects pedals going into exactly the right amp with exactly the right TMB settings... otherwise your tone is complete crap and you don't know anything about anything and all you can play is "Louie Louie" and that stinks too.
I always thought the best musician is the one that plays the best music and the best composers are the ones that compose the best music. How they do it really doesn't matter to me.
But then I play the wrong guitar plugged into the wrong amp so what do I know.
Sorry for the meaningless interruption.
Please continue....
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biab2024(Mac) Latest Build
Mac OS Sequoia 15.0.1
Apple M2 pro 32GB Ram
Logic Pro 11
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............... you don't know anything about anything and all you can play is "Louie Louie" and that stinks too. Please leave me out of your messages  .I always thought the best musician is the one that plays the best music and the best composers are the ones that compose the best music. How they do it really doesn't matter to me. .But then I play the wrong guitar plugged into the wrong amp so what do I know.
Sorry for the meaningless interruption.
Please continue....
Welcome to my world as I also plug my guitar into the wrong amp, but that is so I can play the wrong notes! Actually it was not a meaningless interruption. Your best musician/composer comment was spot on.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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There are plenty of tools we use to make music. - The physical skills of playing our instrument(s)
- The ability to listen to music like a musician (as opposed to a non-musician)
- Musical phrasing, dynamics, and ornaments
- Ear training (how to learn parts by ear)
- Music theory (from basic to advanced - whatever you need)
- Reading music
- Composing music
- and others that I'm sure I've missed
Not all of us have all those skills, but for most of us, it's better to have the majority. Since this thread is about reading music. I work in a duo, and I make my own backing tracks. That means I lay down the drums, bass, keys, strings, backing vocals (on synth voices) and everything else except the most fun parts, which I leave for Mrs. Notes and I to play live. (Can't let the machine have all the fun). I could do this entirely by ear. But it would be very time-consuming. Even though I have very good ears, I'm bound to get a few things wrong (just what chord was that, two or three seem to work, but the inner voices aren't coming out). I could do this entirely by reading music. It would be very quick. Rather than pick out every note the musicians are playing by ear, I can just read them. But notation isn't exact. I'd miss a lot of the nuances that turn the empty notes into the song. So I use a combination of both, notation and ears. In my case, it's better to have both skills. I've done over 600 backing tracks so far, and the combination method works best for me. If I did them entirely by ear, wouldn't have had the time to do so many. If I did them only by reading the music, they wouldn't sound as good. Fortunately, in this day and age, I can get copies of the music for almost any song I want to learn. We all have different needs, and different skill sets. Use what you have, and learn what you think you need to add. Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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TAB is very useful.
Not for me but many TAB is also the world. In the alt. world of "famous" UTUB shredders who can't play along with other folk is, seemingly, based on it.
I have a relative who seemed like a decent player but remove him from a song he'd learnt by TAB and he was lost. He gave up playing when it became clear that there was more to playing & being in a band than the note for note stuff, (he also sat his matriculation guitar practical exam whilst out of tune. He didn't notice but the panel did).
I've heard, (I uncertain, as the classical players I know write & record stuff for themselves when not rehearsing for their work), that some classical players can't function without their manuscripts but, then again, they've been trained to play the dotes and occasionally look at the conductor. They do what is required for their work...seems reasonable to me.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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I don't like TAB. Probably because I learned to read standard notation first. Seems to me, having pitches and durations on the same staff is less complicated. But others like TAB, and that's OK with me.
Many classical players can only read music and cannot improvise. I remember watching a documentary where the great violinist, Itzhak Perlman was trying to play some jazz and asked Andre Previn how to improvise. Andre tried to teach him, but it wasn't something Itzhak could learn quickly, so Andre wrote an improvisation for Itzhak to read.
In the big band era of the 30s and 40s, many of the players couldn't improvise, while others could. I sat in with a 'ghost orchestra' when I was young to replace an older friend who was ill. The leader asked me, “Can you ride?” which meant “Can you ad-lib?” and I replied “Yes.” I only got one chance in the night, but the night was fun. The charts were easy to follow, and I got to stand up and improvise for 8 bars. I wouldn't want to do that for a living (I'm a solo hog) but it was fun.
Personally, I think every musician should learn to read. Not necessarily sight-read, but enough to understand it. I also think every musician and vocalist should learn at least basic music theory, as it is our common language. And one more; Every musician in a pop band should learn to play drums, and at least have a command of the first 12 rudiments. These skills will help you immensely.
But of course, everybody else has their opinion.
Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I’m with Bob on this
“Develop your ear. Listen to varied types of music. Learn songs by ear. Find a pickin' buddy”
I would like to add “have fun” to the list. If you arent having fun are probably doing it wrong plus you probably won’t be doing it very long.
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As a newbie on the bass (not quite 8 years yet) I have a long way to go to reach my goals. But here are a few thoughts at this point in time.
1. Try not to play any sour notes, use those ears
2. Hit the root note of the chord as I move thru the progression.
3. Incorporate the 3rd, 5th and octave to add some dynamics and life (don't drone)
4. Always always support the percussion and help drive the rhythm with the drummer, in this regard, the drummer rules
5. As needed and "offline" decompose the chord to find the notes it's comprised of and use these notes to build arpeggios and fills
6. For a cover song, learn as much tab from the pros as possible to help build a bassline and use tab as a stepping stone to sheet music
7. If I can get by with just a chord sheet that's great
8. If possible, memorize the piece to allow more fluid playing to support the groove.
9. Listen to what else is going on in the band and allow others to "breathe"
10. The end result is not about what is written on a page (in any format) but rather what comes out of my amp.
11. Have fun
12. Don't be a bot (think player piano) but be a human that expresses creativity
13. Take musical risks and be fearless
14. Sometimes the best "notes" are silence, rests are my friend
15. Try to find passing notes that work
16. Busy playing is not always good playing
17. There are many written and perhaps unwritten rules of music involving genre, timing, theory, chord progressions, rhythm, song structure, what is considered to be desirable sound, etc. Try to support these rules. Although these rules may be stretched to some extent, if you out and out break them you'll probably generate noise. Think the bass player playing in a differet key from everyone else or someone playing the verse but everyone else playing the chorus.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Bass thumper.. very well said… especially this one
“9. Listen to what else is going on in the band and allow others to "breathe"”
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Good advice. In a band setting, listen to everyone. Everything everyone does should support whoever is singing/playing the melody at the time. The drummer should set the rhythm and the bassist should be an appendage to the drummer. Additionally, like all the other instruments, support the melody, fill in the holes if you want, do whatever you can to contrast or compliment the melody, but never-ever do anything to compete with it.
Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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