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After reading DC Ron's response to my comment (see here), the question came to mind: Where to put the climax of a song? I usually upload my songs to YouTube, and the statistics show how long listeners actually listen to a song. My last song has by far the worst performance of all my songs, after 1 minute 65% of the listeners are already gone, and it's actually worse because you tough guys mostly listen to the complete drama to comment, which makes the stats look better. And, you might guess, the climax/payoff (as in DC Ron's song) is towards the end (the a capella chorus), so most people miss it. So, if you're still reading at this point  : what is the best place for the best part of your song?
Logically, not at the beginning, because from then on it can only go downhill, and also not (as a dramatic build-up would suggest and where I would like to place it) at the end, because by then most listeners are long gone. Since you guys have much more experience than I do, what are your thoughts and/or experiences? Or do you just not care?
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Brian, IMHO a good song is a good song regardless of where the climax is located. Of course that implies there is a climax and one can define a climax. Are the choruses multiple climaxes? Or maybe the bridge?
Maybe people who stop listening are not a fan of that genre. I know that I stop listening to many songs on Youtube because I don't care for them, regardless of the genre. A side note I always completely listen to songs regardless of the genre on the showcase forum. I am interested in how others use BiaB and amazed at how good virtually all of the songs are in the showcase.
Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music.
I just record songs I want to record and post them. If someone likes them fine, if not that is OK also.
I have gotten a lot of good advice on the showcase forum and have improved, at least in my mind (YMMV). But I am not trying to make money with them.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
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The question might be less about where to place the climax than how to keep listeners engaged. I attempt to create interest as a song progresses in several ways. Could be new instrumentation, a harmony, a bridge, a pre-chorus, a key change, a BGV, a lyrical twist, etc. It just has to be fun to listen to and serve the song. On the example in the OP, I was saving two cool sounding alternative readings of the title line for the outro. Songs like My Best Friends Girlfriend always keep me until the end because I love the new ways he finds to sing the title line as they wrap it up. I can think of dozens of songs that don't do this that I love just as much though. So it depends.
But I do love it when someone is listening to the final note and says, "That's SO cool..."
DC Ron
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The question might be less about where to place the climax than how to keep listeners engaged. I guess you're right. I remember one famous reviewer telling that he stopped listening to Billie Eilish's "Happier Than Ever" _before_ the interesting (second) part began, because he didn't expect the song to change much. It seems that "expected changes" is something you need to imply.
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Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music. The analysis part has already been covered by you guys in the Showcase forum I think it boils down to what Ron said, which is how to keep the listener engaged long enough to get them to the most important/beautiful/whatever parts without overwhelming them with too much variety.
Last edited by B.D.Thomas; 10/29/23 06:38 AM.
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Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music. The analysis part has already been covered by you guys in the Showcase forum Well, having submitted a few songs to one of the services that analyzes songs as a business, Mario is absolutely correct. For better or worse, the analyses in the Showcase forum are quite a bit friendlier than what you would get from the pros. Which is not a knock on this forum whatsoever. It's just brutal out there. Ha!
Last edited by DC Ron; 10/31/23 08:59 AM.
DC Ron
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I'm giving a behind the screen look at my process. But hey.... We're all friends here.... Well, most of us anyway....so....
I believe you have to grab the listener within the first 15 seconds or you risk losing them. Then if you manage to keep them at this point, you have to deliver the goods before the one minute point. So long intros lose your audience before you ever sing the first word. Then if your chorus is not started by the one minute mark and you decide to go with two verses, you lose more and if the chorus is not the climax of the song.... Well you're in danger of losing the rest.
People don't have long attention spans. Grab them quick and deliver the goods quickly.
Now.... How I listen. And I'll never tell you what I do with any given song unless I really like it and mention specifically that I listened to it all or multiple times.... My normal procedure is I'll give it 10 seconds to 20 seconds. From that I have determined if I want to hear the rest. I'll often listen through the first vocal line to decide either continue to listen or click close on the song. If you haven't started the vocal at 20ish seconds, I'm generally out. I might jump ahead into the middle to see if the vocals have started.
Then..... The only question is should I stay or should I go?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I'm giving a behind the screen look at my process. Herb, I listen about this same. Except I'll listen to an entire forum song even if there's nothing there to grab me. Think a discussions of how musical hooks grab a listener is useful. To your point, it really has to be done early and often. Especially in this age where the listener can click Next and move on so easily...
DC Ron
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[quote=DC Ron
Herb, I listen about this same. Except I'll listen to an entire forum song even if there's nothing there to grab me.
Think a discussions of how musical hooks grab a listener is useful. To your point, it really has to be done early and often. Especially in this age where the listener can click Next and move on so easily... [/quote]
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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[
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it. So true, Mario. Another interesting effect is created when the listener identifies with the lyrics in a very personal way. So the songwriter may choose to tell a story that has sufficient ambiguity to allow for interpretation. Y'know, if I'm listening to a song that's about ME, I'm certainly going to hear it through. Heck, I MAY even listen more than once...
DC Ron
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[
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it. So true, Mario. Another interesting effect is created when the listener identifies with the lyrics in a very personal way. So the songwriter may choose to tell a story that has sufficient ambiguity to allow for interpretation. Y'know, if I'm listening to a song that's about ME, I'm certainly going to hear it through. Heck, I MAY even listen more than once... Ron, you don't want to hear a song about me!
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Ron, you don't want to hear a song about me! Ha! Too late. I think I already have...
DC Ron
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer.
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer. I agree with you that there is no one answer, Mike. There are plenty of theories and lots of science about songwriting, but their application doesn't ensure an interesting song, much less a hit. On the other hand, AI will write a hit song soon, if it hasn't already. I'd like to think I won't like it, but I might. Didn't think I'd ever appreciate vocaloids either...
DC Ron
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer. My question wasn't about writing a hit song, I just wanted to know what the best approach is for non-hits. When I listen to other people's music, my approach is similar to Herb's, and in fact most of my own songs follow more or less the timings he mentioned. But sometimes my songs want a late climax or a late surprise. But I think with today's attention span, that's no longer possible.
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The answer is to keep the listener engaged. It's like asking where a chorus should be placed. There's the old cliche "Don't bore us, get to the chorus", but one song might need more development before bringing in the chorus, while another song might start with the chorus. Mario mentions "hooks", and it's the same idea - what are you doing in the song to keep them engaged and wanting to continue to listen? A provocative line opening a verse gets a users attention; a developing story keeps their interest; a satisfying chorus brings everything together; development in additional verses gives new meaning to the chorus... I can recognize when it's done right in a song. But it's not so easy to do it myself, though. 
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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The answer is to keep the listener engaged. It's like asking where a chorus should be placed. There's the old cliche "Don't bore us, get to the chorus", but one song might need more development before bringing in the chorus, while another song might start with the chorus. Mario mentions "hooks", and it's the same idea - what are you doing in the song to keep them engaged and wanting to continue to listen? A provocative line opening a verse gets a users attention; a developing story keeps their interest; a satisfying chorus brings everything together; development in additional verses gives new meaning to the chorus... I can recognize when it's done right in a song. But it's not so easy to do it myself, though. David, that's a very nice summation of everything I should have said. Ha!
DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats.
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats. Not disagreeing with that.
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Y'know I agree in principle for myself.
But...I grew up with AM radio. Back then, acts like the Beatles purposefully wrote songs that would make girls scream and buy their 45s. But while they were at it they invented a whole new type of music that went way beyond the early rock and roll, soul, skiffle and show tunes that influenced them. I have several music influencers on my YouTube feed and they are inventive and fun. And sure, they are probably writing songs for my demographic. But...I think I'm glad they do. So I cut this new generation a little slack. This is all they know.
That being said I don't write songs around YouTube viewing stats and doubt I'll ever care to.
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
Presonus Studio One
ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM
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