Rustyspoon, I don't have "concrete bugs" for you but I do have 10+ years of experience with this software and many more years experience writing and selling software.
I don't understand your hurry in removing essential functionality before the BIAB Annual Paid User Beta Testing is completed!
And removing large chunks of code is never something to be done casually. Have you ever wondered why computer game producers leave all their test code (cheats and Easter eggs to us gamers) in the released product? The reason is, to remove that code may cause more harm than good.
"before the BIAB Annual Paid User Beta Testing is completed" LOL
I don't believe request is premature. This is a wishlist, and I have no doubts,if it will be considered (removing obsolete pickers), it will be no earlier than we will get VST3 support, which I hope we will receive by the end of February.
In my humble view, one of the biggest issues with BIAB is redundancy / unwanted and unneeded complexity that comes with maintaining obsolete and unfinished features. Previous pickers are perfect example of that. Another (from newer ones) is F8 vs Alt F8. When Alt+F8 was introduced, it should have been completed with a few remaining tools of F8, and F8 put to rest and replaced by non-modal version. There quite a few examples of that nature. New MTP Library is a big step in the right direction, given several known issues are fixed, it is pretty much complete. Why carry all the weight and scare new customers with all other pickers? -----------------------------------------------
The point of this thread is to identify shortcomings (if any) of new MTP Library compared to all previous pickers and have constructive discussion pointing developers making right decisions based of user wants/needs, not on hypothesis of what "might" happen. That is their job to worry about programming.
"The point of this thread is to identify shortcomings (if any) of new MTP Library compared to all previous pickers and have constructive discussion pointing developers making right decisions based of user wants/needs
I like that goal a lot more than the thread's title "Please remove all previous pickers."
Old habits die hard for some. I think that the simplest solution is to keep the current buttons in place, but redirect them all to the appropriate tabs in the new Multi-Picker.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
JJJ, As soon as those issues are identified and addressed, it's my wish for previous pickers to be GONE - GOODBYE!... and thank you for your service. ----- Charlie, new users are scared by unneeded complexity. "Operation issue" is an issue! I I don't believe that accumulating old code and maintaining about 30% of useless menus is a "good thing". Bugs, user confusion, should I continue or you know what I will say next? We (humanoids) are not robots to keep memorizing redundant multiple ways of doing one thing & unorthodox workarounds. Likely some find joy in it. Not me.
Bashing might not be the right word. Disagreeing without a specific reason. That is what I meant.
" can't say what bothers me specifically" When you do, post it. If reasonable/beneficial, I will gladly support it.
" it's still not done very well" Explain. That is what the Wishlist is for.
Honestly, I'm just taking a bit of a breather. I had high hopes for this update but, while everyone else seems happy, I'm completely unenthusiastic with it. I need to calm down a bit before I hate on it too much so that I can post my thoughts in a less angered manner.
Fwiw, I am absolutely 100% behind your idea to remove unnecessary items and I'd take that a lot further than just the pickers. I just don't want this to happen unless the alternatives are as good, preferably better.
I'm quite clearly the odd one out who despises putting anything behind unnecessary mouse clicks. Compare the previous realtracks picker to the one in the multipicker and a whole bunch of stuff, which was right there on the page, is now behind more clicks.
I'm impatient and I want everything to happen and be accessible as quickly and easily as possible. This isn't normal DAW type software, as we all agree. I don't know how others use it but I use it as an ideas pad where I can trial things quickly without multiple clicks and drop down menus when they aren't needed. It wasn't quite so bad in the past but now we have so much to choose from we can spend a long time trialing and regenerating many many times over. This should be click listen, not click click menu sub-menu search click click listen.
Add to that we have a search and filter that is almost pointless - nothing new there, it's been that way forever but it's just becoming annoying now. What often takes half an hour should be able to do in minutes.
I will post more about my frustrations but like I say, I just need to take a breath so that I don't unintentionally offend anyone.
Last edited by Lee N; 12/12/2305:10 PM. Reason: spelling
Lee, Ohh it will take quite a lot to offend me Please don't worry about that.
New Multipicker Library is far better than everything what we had before. Sure, it does have a few known issues, hopefully they are fixed in no time. You mentioned "number of clicks". Take your time pinpoint exactly where you need more clicks and write it here when you are ready. Filtering it seems the same as with previous pickers, and while I am not in "love" with it, it works as expected. We would all benefit from "nested" filtering, but that is good topic for another thread. ---------- You mentioned: "I don't know how others use it but I use it as an ideas pad where I can trial things quickly without multiple clicks" Me too. And new 2024 version is better than anything that we had before. I am a bit sick now, but I will record a better video when I get better. Meanwhile, please watch my short clip. Maybe it will give you some ideas of workflow using new MTP Library: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=788290#Post788290
Me too. And new 2024 version is better than anything that we had before. I am a bit sick now, but I will record a better video when I get better. Meanwhile, please watch my short clip. Maybe it will give you some ideas of workflow using new MTP Library: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=788290#Post788290
I'm sure it is better. I'm just a bit deflated and also not had much time to play around. The first thing I did was test out partial regen for drums (one of the main reasons I upgraded) only to find out it doesn't work. With that I gave up and will try again when I'm more inspired to try again. I'll give your video a watch. Thanks
While I support the idea of removing things to streamline the program, mightn't this have the potential to impact significantly on the effectiveness of the community of helpers in the Windows/Mac forums, etc?
For example, if someone has a problem with BIAB 2016 (say) and I ask them to describe the process they go through that causes the problem, I can presently re-create their actions step by step (mostly). If things change too much, though, that would not be possible. Similarly, if I give a set of diagrams and step-by-step instructions on how to solve a problem, those solutions would be based on my current version of BIAB and if the change between my version and a user's version is too great, my solutions would have limited value.
Explanation-type problems that arise due to a lack of consistency between versions can already be seen in some posts in the "Tips and Tricks" forum where present versions of BIAB don't have an exact relationship with past versions.
For example, the below set of instructions regarding plugins is relevant to BIAB 2018.
The system is now completely different. If a user of BIAB 2018 had a plugin problem, solving it becomes much harder if the solutions are based on BIAB 2024 as the reference version.
Ahh, Noel, It is absurd thinking and philosophy that those who spend their hard earned money yearly, supporting progress should suffer from redundancy and unnecessary complexity that "possibly" can occur for somebody who doesn't (support the progress and PGM music in general).
Out of good will, and simply because you are a nice person, you can surely help someone who for one reason or another didn't upgrade IN YEARS but make everyone else suffer for those reasons is flawed thinking in every possible way.
Sorry Noel, I feel this one belongs to: doing good deeds on other peoples backs.
Since I agree with both Noel and Misha maybe the answer would be an either or option, much like control T for the GUI? Maybe even tie the old picker to the old GUI? Or have it a separate option?
Just my two cents.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
But it seems to me that all the functionalities of the previous selectors are not included in the MP? I've noticed several over time. Which means no, it's not a good idea.
Mario, I think you are confusing backward compatibility vs redundancy and simply outdated features. I do understand the need for older GUI as some people's vision degrades with age and big buttons are something that they are more comfortable with, but something like new MTP Library, which makes things so much easier in every way and has everything that older picker offered with same familiar layout, I simply don't see a single valid argument to keeping those which makes program more confusing than it already is.
---------
MoultiPass "But it seems to me that all the functionalities of the previous selectors are not included in the MP?"
What is that you are missing? Explain. Just throwing words out mean little. I am asking, because if you are "missing" something, you argument should look like: I om Ok with request If A and B is added from X Y pickers, otherwise No.
That way we can make those specific requests to PGM and try to persuade a change of making program cleaner, instead of more cluttered with redundant and outdated items.
I'm just showing you the old Rt selector. I use each of these buttons. In the MP you have to look for them in the right-click submenus. If you hide all the options in right clicks, people will no longer use them and we will lose freedom. Right click or buttons, the most meaningful for me is the button.Why make it complicated? If you only use the new one, that's up to you. But don't penalize others.
Moultipass, so the "missing" functions are there, and not missing (per your initial post) except for convenience of several buttons that you are personally (and likely few other users) are used to? Correct?
I don't agree with your "penalize others" comment. I think it is far more damaging to software and ultimately users leaving huge chunks of redundant code just to satisfy a few "convenient" buttons. Instead of trying to formalin specimens, put forward idea(s) how to make new MTP library better - to suit your needs. In my view many popular, well supported ideas from this section of the forum do make it to yearly release.
Removing old / outdated / redundant GUI elements is all about simplifyng the GUI, simplify documentation, simplify software manteinance, reduce bugs, reduce clutter, avoid confusion for new users, improve consistence between GUI elements, improve ease of use and enhance user experience.
I don't really see any strong reason to maintain those old, outdated pickers, but I do see many benefits for the program if the developers decide to remove them.
I agree - remove the old reduntant stuff from the GUI. I have not found any functions in the old menus that are not also available in the new Multipicker. If the old stuff is kept, then the gui will never improve just become more cluttered. One of the more confusing things I know is when the same function appears in several places. It makes me wonder why? Is there something that differs between these functions in these places? I have never seen any other software that keeps the old gui stuff when improving the gui.
I think it is absolutely obvious that we are heading straight towards this simplification, which will take time since everything is nested in Biab and each action can be done in 3 different ways. I simply noticed that with a release on 5/12, asking for such a deletion on 6 could cause some users a form of frustration. But you would really have to be blind not to imagine that we are necessarily going to simplify the whole thing.
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Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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