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I was not going to respond anymore to you sir MC. I have to say one thing. For you to see when someone disagrees with you as an attack is really wrong. It is a difference of opinion. to label and berate others for their views is an attack. This is why folks resist you. Not because of your ideas which are innovative and thought provoking. You have the ability to be a very powerful force for future thinking here and elsewhere. I have read many of your post here and over at the Reaper forum You are very talented. You just miss one key point. One that D Cuny tried to help you see. That point is that your plan/idea/concept, call it what you want is just that yours, and not the only path to the future. It is helpful but not the only option.
You are welcome to stay and help or go as you see fit. Every time you don't like what others have to say you threaten to leave. That has been happening now for over 10 years usually you do go for a couple months. the return with a different name. That again is your prerogative. No one here is asking you to go. All we ask it that you offer the rest of us who are also trying in our own way to assist PGM in the future ideas for the BiaB product the same dignity and respect you want from us. We don't label you in public, we don't highjack your threads and change the subject to our agenda, we treat you fairly even if we disagree with one of your views. However, when you start your attacks and labeling, highjacking we point this out and ask you not to, when you then start trying to belittle us about it, we fight back. You take that as an attack. Sir you threw the first punch. We just react. If that is wrong, then at least from me i apologize. I ask one thing, and one thing only! Be respectful to all here, as you want respect back. If that does not make sense to you then i don't know what will. I am done with the conversation.
TSo the rest on this important thread and to PGM i apologize as well i will keep my thought here to the subject at hand.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 06/06/24 11:03 AM.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Sir is actually a Madam as far as I know. 
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< What could be improved >
Weaknesses:
Weaknesses 6 and 7 appear to be directly linked regarding subject matter.
I've interpreted Weakness 7 as an example of a solution to Weakness 6 and doesn't stand on its own as an actual program weakness. Further clarification is needed from the authors of the White Paper as to why Weakness 7 is an actual weakness of the program.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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< What could be improved >
Weaknesses
<< 8. New (2024) way of using Bar Settings (Mutes, Back to Normal) for Utility tracks.
Unlike "Legacy" tracks, where you have visuals on a single page which tracks are muted or unmuted, utility track requires clicking on the separate drop down menu and selecting the track in question manually, just to see what was done to it. Many (!)useless clicks.
Expected: Everything visualized and editable on a single page. >>
While this weakness is true for 2024, an improvement of the White Paper would be acknowledgement the BIAB program has for years offered an updated and alternative considered better than the Bar Settings Mute/Back to Normal method.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Weakness 8 can be made better by a simple slide bar to the right of the tracks. the Legacy and Utility tracks all listed in a row that extend down below in a "window" inside the Non Modal window. When you slide the bar down it reveals the lower tracks. This eliminates the drop down click just slide to the track in question and back if needed.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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< What did we get wrong >
(See item #15in the BiaB’s Weaknesses section)
Typo error. #15 should be #14
.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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< What can be improved >
< 5. The Needs of the Advanced BiaB User
The needs of the advanced user are numerous. Pro Musicians, songwriters and composers alike demand intuitive interfaces, seamless workflows, high-quality results and of course a bug-free experience. Any software product falling short in these areas risks losing these users, as time is often equivalent to money for them.
The advanced user also requires that complex, compound time signatures be readily and seamlessly available to support their workflow. Some examples are 5/4, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, and 12/8. These time signatures need to be native i.e. no workarounds needed. >
This point isn't compelling because it's not supported with documented sources and references. It seems more of an opinion by the authors than researched and validated fact. At the least, if outside documentation and sources aren't considered necessary, the authors that are professional musicians, songwriters and composers, should be listed with their credentials.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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WHITE PAPER
8.Realistic Live Tracks: The software excels at creating realistic live tracks (stems) that
follow your chords and are performed by live musicians. This feature, which predates
AI, can save you time and assist in songwriting and practice. It includes RealTracks (RTs), RealDrums (RDs), and Super MIDI tracks (SMT
Should include UserTracks, loops, and more importantly, Artist Performance Files Charlie, this is beyond my "pay grade". Hopefully someone on the team can address this. No response is necessary as the point was simply to list all of the formats that BIAB can accept in the Mixer to create songs with.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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< What can be improved >
< 5. The Needs of the Advanced BiaB User
The needs of the advanced user are numerous. Pro Musicians, songwriters and composers alike demand intuitive interfaces, seamless workflows, high-quality results and of course a bug-free experience. Any software product falling short in these areas risks losing these users, as time is often equivalent to money for them.
The advanced user also requires that complex, compound time signatures be readily and seamlessly available to support their workflow. Some examples are 5/4, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, and 12/8. These time signatures need to be native i.e. no workarounds needed. >
This point isn't compelling because it's not supported with documented sources and references. It seems more of an opinion by the authors than researched and validated fact. At the least, if outside documentation and sources aren't considered necessary, the authors that are professional musicians, songwriters and composers, should be listed with their credentials. Good point Charlie, I'm not sure if such a paper could be written without some degree of opinion. I'm thinking the disclaimer should have read: Disclaimer: The authors are not, and cannot speak on behalf of PG Music Inc. or any other company in any capacity. We are simply a group of short-time and long-time users of the program offering opinion, observation and analysis.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Suggested improvement:
Disclaimer: The authors are not speaking on behalf of PG Music. We are just PG Music customers offering opinion, observation and analysis.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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My posts aren't intended to put any author or the White Paper itself on the defensive. My understanding is the white Paper's intended audience is the staff, developers and coders of PG Music. I understand the White Paper is from a group of customers offering opinion, observation, and analysis.
I believe the purpose of the authors posting the White Paper in this forum is to illicit opinion, observation, and analysis from other forum members.
My suggestions for improvements, corrections and analysis are from my reading and understanding of the White Paper in its existing present form. It appears from the initial post in this forum, the White Paper is expected to be further edited and improved based on general forum members input and suggestions.
I have no issue with the authors editing the disclaimer if they feel it necessary and that would be in agreement with my suggestions that some points in the White Paper need minor editing to clearly separate what's opinion and what's analysis.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Charlie, you completly get it and thanks for your thoughtful feedback, keep it coming You are very well spoken, by chance are you coming from a career in academia or perhaps a background in technical writing?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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No. I didn't have a career in academia or technical writing. I was primarily a large loss claims specialist for many decades and also a state constable for three years and Volunteer fireman and chief of the Rescue squad for nineteen years.
In all three endeavors, I learned to think that everything I write and everything others wrote that I was involved with - to assume one day it would be read out loud to 12 people in a jury, only to then be interpreted with opposing points of view by attorneys.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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No. I didn't have a career in academia or technical writing. I was primarily a large loss claims specialist for many decades and also a state constable for three years and Volunteer fireman and chief of the Rescue squad for nineteen years. A State Constable?? Yikes, I better be careful what I say or I'll be in handcuffs and hauled off in a paddywagon Kidding aside, maybe we should have had you on our white paper team. I think you would have had something valuable to contribute. I have found in any organization, be it religious, recreational, academic, civic, government, commercial or volunteer; 5% of the people produce 95% of the work. Most are happy to sit, watch, spectate or bystand.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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(Dec 2024) Now I had a long rest from PG after my last post in this thread and have only just come back now as the things I stated were too far ahead to be understood. Now, have all the things mentioned here in this white paper now been implemented in the 2025 version ? The only thing that brought me back here to PG was the Plugin/Plugin Standalone now having direct playback from disk and instant generation along with small Audiophile drive with FLAC. These things will now allow the Plugin/Plugin Standalone to become the future, being crossplatform without 6 month Win, 6 months Mac development phase. Now as the generate code is moved into the Plugin it will truly become crossplatform when implemented, released at the same time for Win & Mac users only needing to purchase one product that can be installed on both Win & or Mac. The Win users have the 2025 version now, but how about the Mac users, what are they doing for the next 6 months ? Users should focus on both Biab and Plugin and not just one, I have come up with so many things that have been implemented in Biab and still do, BUT also come up with ideas to make the Plugin better. I have been at this for so long and can't be expected to limit my understanding to the first few years I had in 2009 to fit in best with other's understanding so as not not rock the boat and come back into the past. It's like the Midi Chord Track I posted info years and years ago with demos for Ni, Toontrack, Ample, Musiclabs, VirtualGuitarist etc on how to use this but it's only just recently now being used. I even showed a video with RC years n years ago Watch Video
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The Win users have the 2025 version now, but how about the Mac users, what are they doing for the next 6 months ? It's always been that way I believe. Win users get a new version every 12 months. Mac users get a new version every 12 months. (And Mac users get less bugs, because Win users have already ironed many of those out. ) Overall, it's a fairly level playing field.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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It's been a full year since we wrote the White Paper, which addressed BiaB 2024. We now have BiaB 2025 but apparently there's little interest in updating the paper to remove any items in the Weaknesses section that were addressed in the 2025 version and/or to add new weaknesses that have emerged. I notice much activity in this thread regarding the GUI, which was addressed in the paper. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=853448Are we re-hashing the same issues over and over? If so, are we missing anything in the re-hash?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Bass Thumper,
I believe devs took the request to modernize / optimize seriously. Most items from the list made into pinned suggestion topics by PG staff. Many users contributed to those, with many great ideas to modernize BIAB, highlighting existing issues and limitations. I don't have a crystal ball, but I am guessing we might see significant changes by the end of the year. Then again, I might be completely wrong.
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Speak for yourself. Mac users have yet to see anything. We're reading about it but nothing yet. I am hoping that the delay is being caused by making BIAB Apple Silicon Native. That it isn't is not really an issue as long as one is using BIAB as a self contained app — it works fine. OTOH, using BIAB to interact with other apps as I used to do before I got my M2 Studio no longer works very well when it works at all. I came into BIAB as a free plug-in bundled with Finale. That went away when Finale became 64 bit and the plug-in was not upgraded. I still keep an old MacBook Pro running macOS 10.14.6 Mojave so that I can run Finale 2014.5 with the BIAB plug-in, a tremendous time saver for commercial beds under deadline and the like. Oh well...
BIAB 2024 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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I took my name off the white paper because at the time it was prepared, I was too busy with concerts and compositions. It should be noted that this is at least the third organized effort by users to influence what happens with BIAB. The pace and direction the company decides to follow, and the amount they are receptive to user suggestions, is nothing we users can do anything about.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
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These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
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-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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