<< 4. Open the demo sgu "_BALBMS2 demo (ALL REALTRACKS-Ballads,BrentElGuitSol,ElBass,ElGuits,B3Organ)", and this is the chord sheet for the demo audio. I can confirm this, as I already verified the chords with a chord detection software on the demo audio. >>
Correct. This is solid evidence the 'performance' of the demo audio came from a RealTrack data file and not necessarily a Performance Set track.
This also appears to be evidence that data clips solos as long as 1:15 minutes exist in RealTrack instruments data files in their data folder.
<< 5. You can open the demo sgu, sit there for an hour, try to generate the same solo, and you won't get it. Even though you have the chord sheet exactly the same as the demo audio, you can't recreate the demo audio. The algorithm is not invented yet. >>
Absolutely correct. This is the heart of the subject. If you don't get anything else from this discussion, understand point #5.
One can open a demo, any demo, or any SGU file, sit for an hour generating the chart over and again and not get that same solo. There are several causes for this, some intentional and some by design.
For instance:
By design, RealTracks data files residing in every RealTracks data folder are not Performances of songs. They are recordings playing propriatary charts designed and intended for propriatary performances created by implementing the BIAB algorithm, tools, features, and processes in conjunction with user input information to create a unique, distinct and solitary audio performance.
By user choice, one is sitting for an hour or more regenerating a chart they have provided their input and settings but choosing not to implement any of the advanced tools, features, techniques and processes of the BIAB algorithm. This futile effort outputs exactly what one should expect - a mediocre performance. You are relying solely on the Chord Sheet that's exactly the same as the demo audio but every other element of that production is left out. It's not due to the algorithm not being invented yet, the algorithm is there but hasn't been implemented. You have not indicated anywhere that you are doing anything other than entering the same chords as the demo, in the same key and tempo and generating over and over.
<< 6. Demo songs were not generated by BiaB. BiaB doesn't have an algorithm to keep 16 bars of original recording track unchanged. The only way to extract 16 bars of audio from the performance track unchanged, is to manually cut it out, aka "straight out of the box". >>
Nonsense. Your own photos show a 16 bar of original recording unchanged in RT#1167 data file eg4800.wma.
There has been no evidence presented other than what PG Music puts in every demo video presentation for many years that what is being played is generated by BIAB.
I'm not sure how you're arriving at the #6 statement when evidence you posted clearly shows that 16 bar or original recording track unchanged. What evidence can be shown that contradicts the PG Music Web site and the written statement in every demo video for years to the contrary of your statement?
Charlie Fogle, you talked a lot about theories, but not a single word in practice.
You said "to implement any of the advanced tools, features, techniques and processes of the BIAB algorithm."
Well, how?
Can you provide a step by step guide, on how to use BiaB to create a soloist track, with 16 bars of unchanged audio directly from data file eg4800.wma?
I doubt you can.
If you are a PG staff member, there might be a way. If you are a user, there is no way.
To a user, the only way, is to drag eg4800.wma to the DAW, and manually cut it up.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
<< Charlie Fogle, you talked a lot about theories, but not a single word in practice. >>
You've made some great points and observations and I appreciate your good nature in discussing these unique BIAB features and tools. I've not gone into detail to how these features work up to now as this has been a discussion rather than a tutorial.
RT#1152, MultiStyles, RealTrack Medley Maker, Song Form, Artist Performance Files, Audio Chord Wizard, Chord Sheet, BIAB Mixer, The Audio Track, Repeats/Coda's, and Part Markers are all tangible, real features of BIAB and all of my screenshots are real BIAB results, not mock-ups.
<< You said "to implement any of the advanced tools, features, techniques and processes of the BIAB algorithm."
Well, how? >>
The short answer is to use them. In the User Showcase, you can hardly find songs that use repeats, MultiStyles, Artist Performance Files, or the Medley Maker. Most productions are exported BIAB tracks to be manipulated, edited, arranged and mixed/ volume automated, comped and add effects in a DAW. One of the reasons that brought me into this discussion is I have recently looked at about 10 YouTube videos on using BIAB. Some were gifted and experience musicians but all of them made the most basic SGU files that BIAB can produce - essentially input a 3 chord progression and generate. None of the videos featured any of the above features.
<< Can you provide a step by step guide, on how to use BiaB to create a soloist track, with 16 bars of unchanged audio directly from data file eg4800.wma?
I doubt you can. >>
Yes, you're right. No I can't. To explain why, I'll assume the eg4800.wma file to be as it's represented in the BIAB program, a RealTrack audio data file to be used with RT#1167.
As a RealTrack audio data file, eg4800.wma is a studio recording by a session musician, in a recording studio and exists as recorded audio. It's not a generated BIAB SGU Performance. Nothing exists for users to recreate this live recording. The 16 bars were recorded following a proprietary chart prepared by PG Music developers. The session musician likely followed an SGU Chord Chart and backing tracks for the session player to follow along with a printed or chart on a PC screen. No BIAB production features, tools and processes would be added or necessary because that track is being recorded live to be used as a RT audio data file, not a performance. However, that SGU file could and was likely used for the instrument demo audio.
Even with the exact Chord Sheet they used, generating a BIAB file with that same eg4800.wma file included, the BIAB algorithm is designed to select material from the entire folder of all the included wma files in the folder not just the one eg4800.wma file. So, the only way to generate the exact soloist track is to have the session player record it again.
<< To a user, the only way, is to drag eg4800.wma to the DAW, and manually cut it up. >>
This is mostly correct. You can do it in BIAB and extract the entire 16 bars, convert that into an Artist Performance File, analyze the chords, tempo, key and populate the Chord Chart and play it over the correct Chords. You would be able to change the tempo, key and style but not chord changes. You would also have to manually add the underlining midi to have notation and tabs. If it exists as a demo or an Artist Performance, that would be another way to use it.
Notice in my last post two screenshots where I did what I've detailed above with a Brent Mason Artist Performance. His performance is 4 choruses of 29 bars plus the ending. It is already in the Artist Performance File format that can be used in a SGU file or in the Artist Performance SGU song. Either way I can play that track and chord progression slowed down, learn with the notation and tab, loop it and have speed up after each consecutive loop to practice the solo and start slow and get it up to full speed.
This procedure can be done with any instrument, any track from any style or SGU chord sheet if the RealTrack has underlying midi for display of the notation and tabs.
For example, you can create a SGU Chord Chart and use a Brent Mason soloist RealTrack with underlying midi and work on the solo until it sounds the way you like, any changes, regenerations and such, the midi notation and tabs will be updated. Once you are satisfied, convert it to an Artist Performance File so it remains exactly the same regardless of the tempo, key and style you practice with it
Any file, regardless the format, (midi, SuperMidi, Loops, RealTracks or live recorded audio can be converted to an Artist Performance Track by Right clicking on the Track, opening Track Actions and selecting the bottom selection - Save Track as a Performance File. Note: the SGU project must be saved first or you will be prompted to save the file before BIAB will complete the action.
I've attached a link to a post from 2020 I made about Artist Performance Files.
<< 3. Don't use Audacity. Use a DAW. Set to bpm 65. Chop it yourself. Listen to both tracks together, and you will see. >>
I didn't analyze anything in Audacity. That screenshot is for display only.
I analyzed and generated tracks in BIAB. I analyzed the audio using the Audio Chord Wizard for the Chords, key signature, and tempo which automatically populated the Chord Chart. I converted the solo recording into an Artist Performance File and generated and played the solo over several different styles, keys, and tempos. And having the solo's notation and tabs available for study or to learn how to play that solo just like Brent.
Reading comprehension and context matters. Big egos don't
"What are we seeing?" A picture is worth a 1000 words, it says it all, everything is there like MV said. Just help to improve things, not hider and say that 2013 was fine and we don't need non destructive editing or direct play. I put in so much time and effort in improvements for all the software, but then it is just knocked buy those that don't understand or give anything themselves and expect me to go back to 2009 and stay there in the 90's. What are you wanting me to do, what is bothering you so much ?????????
"BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory." Where is WinXP Pentium II 350mhz Slot 1 BIAB 20013 ? it's fine !
From a production perspective, Artist Performance Tracks or Files, are nothing but audio files. You can play it in BiaB as an orange color track, or drag it to a DAW and do manipulations there. The midi, tabs and notations come along with performance files are not useful if you don't do studies.
What's really useful, is the sgu chord sheets come along with the performance files. Once you know what chord progression Brent Mason was playing along when the solo track was originally recorded, you can use the solo track in a way of "straight out of the box" in your DAW, without having to chop it and then assemble it.
You are correct, the Artist Performance Sets, as well as the Instrumental Studies sets, were very useful in real production, because the original chord progressions are known. There is only one problem: quantity.
For electric guitar solos, slow to middle tempo range (65 ~ 85 bpm), there are not many there can be used. Most of the solos are in the fast tempo range.
If compare performance files to the massive BiaB data files, such as eg4800.wma, we are talking about a swimming pool versus an ocean.
The bad thing about data files is, there is no sgu chord sheet. In other words, the chord progression information is saved in some weird XT2 and ST2 files, which can only be read by BiaB, not by users. And apparently, PG Music doesn't want people to read these types of files.
RealTrack #1167 is an exception. Somehow, demo sgu "_BALBMS2" is exactly the chord sheet of which the data file was originally recorded based on. I tried to search demo sgu files for other guitar soloist RealTracks, no luck, there is not any.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
If I map it out by chords it will play the same part of the source file over another chord and so get different marker names further on in the bars that use the same source file. I was going to melodyne the source out but there is no direct input version for that guitar. if it's based more on notes being played and if riffs can start on any beat ?
I can map out a rhythm instrument this way with chords. So I might go play with RapidComposer again, you can match EQ the sound of a RealTrack Guitar into a good virtual instrument that has articulation keyswitches to move the same style playing from midi/realchart over any other chord/key. The PG RealChart has the articulations that I could script into keyswitches or bends.
Because you have the notation for all the sections, you can drop them into RapidComposer and see what it will fit over where. So if you import your chords from Biab into RapidComposer then drop the midi riff in then it will show what audio section of the midi will fit where in Biab or DAW chord track.
You can do it all in Reaper also as I made some script to color the chord and scale notes in the midi editor going by the region chord names. With Reaper you could have the midi/audio items on the one track and group the midi with it's associated audio clip so as you move the midi the audio will follow.
This is with an Audio & Midi riff item grouped together, it can be moved along the midi chord/scale track with snap to see where it best fits. It can be played/previewed with the other tracks. You can shorten the riffs and join sections. If you use melodyne with the whole source files to create the Midi, you can extend or shorten any riff.
<< From a production perspective, Artist Performance Tracks or Files, are nothing but audio files. You can play it in BiaB as an orange color track, or drag it to a DAW and do manipulations there. The midi, tabs and notations come along with performance files are not useful if you don't do studies >>
Artist Performance Files or Tracks display as audio files everywhere but in BIAB. In BIAB, Artist Performance Files and Tracks are a proprietary BIAB file that is converted audio so that BIAB can use that audio with all the proprietary and unique features, tools, processes and techniques in BIAB. You can do much more than just play it as an orange file. Once audio has been converted into an Artist Performance File, the Audio Chord Wizard can analyze the chords, create a Tempo Map, determine the key signature, equalize the tempo, automatically populate the Chord Sheet, edit the waveform, normalize it, fade in, fade out, amplify or reduce any section or the whole track, volume automation, transpose, transcribe, tune, repair sour notes, harmonize and convert stereo to mono or mono to stereo. This is just one feature of BIAB working with audio not generated by BIAB. There are quite a few more features in BIAB that can work with audio not generated in BIAB when the audio has been converted to an Artist Performance File.
Underlying midi included with an Artist Performance File is necessary for the performance file to be utilized by other features. As you noted, Notation and tabs is one feature. The Guitar Window is another. This window displays a fretboard and highlights each note and its location on the fretboard as the audio track plays. The Guitar Window has many settings and configurations and it's my understanding it can be tweaked and is very accurate
<< What's really useful, is the sgu chord sheets come along with the performance files. Once you know what chord progression Brent Mason was playing along when the solo track was originally recorded, you can use the solo track in a way of "straight out of the box" in your DAW, without having to chop it and then assemble it. >> Correct. With practice, using BIAB for this type analysis becomes quick work. For instance, that 16 bar phrase in ag4800.wav can be extracted and converted into an an Artist Performance File and analyzed in the ACW, chords placed in the Chord Sheet, notation with tabs and the Guitar window displaying that 16 bar phrase and it's not going to be chopped together. You will be seeing all the information about that specific clip of audio. Any and every BIAB project can be made into an Artist Performance in seconds.
<< You are correct, the Artist Performance Sets, as well as the Instrumental Studies sets, were very useful in real production, because the original chord progressions are known. There is only one problem: quantity.
For electric guitar solos, slow to middle tempo range (65 ~ 85 bpm), there are not many there can be used. Most of the solos are in the fast tempo range.
If compare performance files to the massive BiaB data files, such as eg4800.wma, we are talking about a swimming pool versus an ocean.
The bad thing about data files is, there is no sgu chord sheet. In other words, the chord progression information is saved in some weird XT2 and ST2 files, which can only be read by BiaB, not by users. And apparently, PG Music doesn't want people to read these types of files. >>
This is true, they guard their proprietary material but they provide access to that proprietary material when a person uses BIAB to work with that material, either as midi, RealTracks or audio not generated by BIAB that's been converted to an Artist Performance File. Everything a user needs to create a custom and accurate SGU file is provided by PG Music to do so. It's simply necessary to do so in the BIAB program. Once converted to an Artist Performance File, the audio clip the speed can be slowed or made faster without changing pitch. Yes, there is a massive amount of audio data in BIAB to use.
<< RealTrack #1167 is an exception. Somehow, demo sgu "_BALBMS2" is exactly the chord sheet of which the data file was originally recorded based on. I tried to search demo sgu files for other guitar soloist RealTracks, no luck, there is not any. >>
I agree this is correct for the 16 bars that seem to have been recorded specifically for the demo of the guitar and also as RealTrack data material. In regard to demos, there are six SGU Chord Sheets prepared for this RealTrack and associated audio performances for all six Chord Sheets.
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