Most of us are pleased that dialogs like style picker finally are not modal any more, I think.
But why are we not allowed to put non modal dialogs to the background? I don't want to aim at the little red cross in the upper right corner of the multi picker, just to hit some random button underneath; I rather want to keep some specific part of that dialog in sight or just have it in reach.
The one thing I don't want to be hidden all the time is the main window.
So what's the rationale for keeping the dialogs in front of it? I don't think it's a default in any user interface library, so they must have put some work into it!
Let's not drift off into a discussion about the design of those windows here...
I would like to be able to put the multipicker to background, while the main window stays in foreground.
How will you bring it to the foreground again?
You made a statement earlier that is quite contradictory to the way the Windows operating system works:
Quote
So what's the rationale for keeping the dialogs in front of it? I don't think it's a default in any user interface library, so they must have put some work into it!
The Windows UI design is to have a main form which is the parent form, and child forms: dialogs which are owned by the parent. They can be modal or non-modal. When launched they are not usually designed to be hidden behind the parent form. They are launched for a particular purpose: information / interaction by the user. Displaying a dialog behind the main form would be incredibly confusing. Frankly I think your view on user interfaces is incorrect.
Quote
The one thing I don't want to be hidden all the time is the main window.
If you launch a dialog, do you really want it to be displayed behind the main window? Wouldn't it be launched because you have a need for it, and therefore should be in front, at least until you have no further need for it?
I find your comments quite confusing. Why launch a dialog that you don't want to be in the way of the main window? Most dialogs in BIAB never hide the main window. When is the main window "hidden all the time"?
The multi-picker has a specific purpose. You can select the required function(s) and then simply close it. You can also resize it. It does not have to continually exist. You can also access functions of the main window by simply moving the multi-picker.
I'm really confused why you are not able to see the way this can be used and the associated benefits of the design.
Couldn't you just close the multi-picker when you no longer need it?
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
While I concur with AudioTrack about having new windows not open behind the ‘main’ window, I am remembering one example that might be relevant where we got into trouble: the DAW Mode (Note: this is not the Plugin). People were opening this, which was programmed to stay on top, but then maximizing the window. They got confused where they were, and how to proceed. I requested and got a visual indicator that helped. So if rgo is talking about something like that happening, I understand. I would like an example, and if there is one, we can ask the developers to make a fix.
About your question, you added an angry icon to your instruction of what you didn’t want. It’s often a challenge to stomach, but you have to be prepared for any direction in which a discussion might go, and you don’t know what we might know that could possibly be helpful. So, I was happy not to have to take my time to even try. But I also try take each post as evenly on its merits as I can.
There’s absolutely no rule against posting in the Wishlist forum but my advice is to post first in the main user forum and work out the details before posting here. As you saw, it isn’t clear to some of us that the question has yet been properly defined and supported.
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PS: What wrong did I commit to make you all so mad at me?
Thats easy, you cast dispersions on the GUI! This has been a sore point with the BIAB forum members for many years. Most of us just want to let that dead dog lie.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
I frequently use this way of arranging my windows, e.g. with the help window of BiaB.
PS: What wrong did I commit to make you all so mad at me?
I'm certainly not angry, just confused.
Although perhaps not obvious, the Help display that you referenced above is not actually part of the BIAB program itself but is part of the separate Windows Help system. Yes, it is launched from BIAB - but it is a completely separate program instance and thus can be managed / positioned separately.
But you can do exactly the same thing from within BIAB without the main window being 'hidden' by the multi-picker. Just change the window sizes and move them around:
I hope this tip helps.
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Thank you all for giving me a second chance, really. I'd like to respond to some points:
Originally Posted by Matt Finley
...which was programmed to stay on top, but then maximizing the window.
That's one of the most dreadful things windows programs like to do; but it's not what I meant.
Originally Posted by Matt Finley
About your question, you added an angry icon to your instruction of what you didn’t want.
Oh, I see. I don't know why I selected this icon any more, but it surely resulted from some different association that had to do with what DrDan said. Sorry for that.
Originally Posted by Matt Finley
...my advice is to post first in the main user forum and work out the details before posting here. As you saw, it isn’t clear to some of us that the question has yet been properly defined and supported.
As I understood, I was referred to this forum by some seemingly official "Simon - PG Music" in another thread for exactly this kind of discussions???
the Help display that you referenced above is not actually part of the BIAB program itself
I'm a user. For me, it's all BIAB.
Originally Posted by AudioTrack
Just change the window sizes
Some screens just aren't as wide as yours. And for my original question: You seem to deny my preference of keeping some subwindows open. In my original post, I already asked for a reasen for that denial: Why? Probably, I'm misunderstanding something here again.
Sorry, had listed some very bad examples in my previous post, so I deleted them.
Examples that work the way I think of are the bookmark manager in Firefox and the editor for writing mails in Thunderbird. And, as I mentioned above, the help window in BIAB.
...my advice is to post first in the main user forum and work out the details before posting here. As you saw, it isn’t clear to some of us that the question has yet been properly defined and supported.
As I understood, I was referred to this forum by some seemingly official "Simon - PG Music" in another thread for exactly this kind of discussions???
You probably mean this: “Looking to the future, we are planning UI enhancements, and we will consider removing the keyboard shortcut. Typically our decisions are shaped by response from our beta testers and by users requests in our Wishlist forums, so if you have any suggestions that would be the best place for them.”
I think the distinction is subtle and as I said, there is no rule, but my opinion is to have the discussion in the regular BIAB Windows forum. Then make a specific suggestion in this Wishlist forum. In this case, Simon seems to be referencing your comments only on Ctrl+T. I could be wrong.
By the way, yes, Simon works for PG Music and participates in the forums. No, the beta testers are not all power users and are not co-developers, whatever that means.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
For me, it's difficult to cope with cognitive dissonances - things that are inconsitent or even self-contradicting, these kinds of misunderstandings or things I can't imagine how they can be understood at all. I got run away from BIAB and it's ecosystem fast.
For me, it's difficult to cope with cognitive dissonances - things that are inconsitent or even self-contradicting, these kinds of misunderstandings or things I can't imagine how they can be understood at all. I got run away from BIAB and it's ecosystem fast.
I had to look that terminology up.
I doubt that the programmers can change the BIAB program though to lessen the issues that you encounter when using BIAB, and this possibly applies to many other programs as well.
However, I thank you for clarifying your position. This assists us to understand the reasons and perspective that you are coming from.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
...and this possibly applies to many other programs as well.
Definitely: YES
Originally Posted by AudioTrack
However, I thank you for clarifying your position. This assists us to understand the reasons and perspective that you are coming from.
I'm surprised and very thankful indeed that you seem to take me seriously [and hope I use this phrase correctly - sounds like kind of a false friend to me, but it's from a dictionary...]. That encourages me to explain a little bit more of it: As I understand it, this extreme difficulty handling 'cognitive dissonance' is part of one trait of ASD, autism spectrum disorder; in my case the version formerly known as Asperger. Better known aspects of this trait go under headings like rigid thinking, black-and-white thinking and, at least in part, the cliché that autists rely on rituals. On the one hand, it's really annoying everyone, not least me. On the other hand, that sensitivity is one reason why Aspies are favored software testers; but then again, some of us are kind of stuck in that testing mode.
Maybe this is a telling example. Every late summer the marketeers start their annual barking: 'Customers love Band in a Box [this year plus 1]' - how's that? Existing customers for something that doesn't yet exist? Most of you say it's just PR, or think of it as self-mockery or something like that, I suppose. I have the impulse to toss a shoe at my screeen when that mail hits my inbox, or rather to bang my head against the wall. So if you want to do something for the disabled, you know where to start [hope this traditional smiley is apropriate here]
Maybe this is a telling example. Every late summer the marketeers start their annual barking: 'Customers love Band in a Box [this year plus 1]' - how's that? Existing customers for something that doesn't yet exist? Most of you say it's just PR, or think of it as self-mockery or something like that, I suppose. I have the impulse to toss a shoe at my screen when that mail hits my inbox, or rather to bang my head against the wall.
FWIW, I'm not autistic and those emails make me feel a little similar; probably less strongly. "The statement can't be true, why do they say it every year?". I guess they need only two such customers for the plural to be valid.
To answer the subject line, non-modal does at least mean that one can move the dialog-window aside and work with the main window, which one couldn't previously do.
I think that one can move them over to another monitor if you have one. You may also be able to minimise it. I'm on a different OS at present, so am unable to check those statements, so I apologise if I'm mistaken.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
... non-modal... I think that one can move them over to another monitor if you have one. You may also be able to minimise it.
Yes for the first, no for the second, though one can minimize it together with the main window or maximize it by itself. Don't know whether it would make sense to minimize it versus closing it; maybe on a slow notebook? At least it would be consistent. At any rate, I understand that the whole thing is in flux. I'll keep quiet and wait.
... And for my original question: You seem to deny my preference of keeping some subwindows open. In my original post, I already asked for a reasen for that denial: Why? ...
You are now asking for something different. In your original post you asked:
Originally Posted by rgo
But why are we not allowed to put non modal dialogs to the background?
As has been explained, non-modal windows allow the user to also interact with other parts of the program without having to completely close the dialog that they are currently using. As an example, they can change the volume, start / stop playback etc. Previously, many dialogs were modal, and this often created troublesome / restricted workflow. There was reduced flexibility.
You can keep some subwindows open. That is exactly what non-modal is. If you want to see the main window without closing subwindows, why can't you just drag them to the edge of the screen? It doesn't seem to be that difficult. Please consider that you might have to adjust your workflow.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
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