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I started to pan the bass in the middle, but then changed to pan it a little bit to left to give it more separation. In the lowest frequency ranges the position of the sound source can't be heard, but in bass guitar is also frequency ranges, which can be positioned in the sound picture. So my basic sound picture tries to imitate a real acoustic band on the stage: singer and solo players, but also the drums (because they're spread already) in the middle. Then low freq range instruments (bass, organ, cello, rhythm accordion, piano etc.) ca 25-30 % to left and right. Then the rhythm keepers (rhythm guitars, banjos etc.) ca 50 % to left and right. Then finally the backing melody instruments (mandolin, banjo, BiaB melodytracks) further on the both sides. I very often also duplicate the vocal track and pan it 15 % left and right. Finally I use also separation in the depth of the sound picture: I put delay to the backing band in reverberation about 7 ms, while the vocalist and solo players only ca 2 ms. So it's like in old fashion concert, where the band is on the back stage and the solists infront are heard first. All this placing to separate the sound sources as much as possible both in horizontal and also in depth. The nature law says, that in the same freq you hear only the loudest sound and it's masking the others. Same goes with sound pulse: the first one is masking the later ones. It's interesting to hear your comments on that placement in the sound picture.

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Panning is one way, but also carving out EQ for things that share the same range is good.
It's also a good idea to use volume envelopes to bring things in and out and not let things drone on in the background. Create space in the mix.


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In the early days of stereo, there were no rules or standards. Bass and Kick could be—and were—panned anywhere, The Beatles were a prime example notable for the fact that EMI and Capital did this differently to the same recordings. Centering both instruments became standardized during the 1970s.

There is a plug-in that can center those frequencies below a threshold, usually 80–120Hz, while panning the frequencies above. I own it and would post a link but am having trouble remembering the name.


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"Ducking" is another option to complement stereo panning and EQ to enable tracks to be heard in the mix. Just Google it. I primarily use these three. Well, four if you include this one: Don't put anything in the mix that doesn't need to be heard.


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Don't put anything in the mix that doesn't need to be heard.

Amen!

Quote
There is a plug-in that can center those frequencies below a threshold, usually 80–120Hz, while panning the frequencies above. I own it and would post a link but am having trouble remembering the name.

A quick search turns up five. I own the BOZ and iZotope plugs. iZotope Ozone Imager 2 is free and the Boz Digital Labs Pan Knob is $49 if not included in a bundle.

Quote
Many plugins can center bass frequencies while allowing you to pan higher frequencies, including specialized stereo imagers and multiband processors. This technique is valuable for anchoring a mix, ensuring the low end has power and mono-compatibility, while giving high-frequency elements space in the stereo field.
Stereo imager plugins with crossover

DJ Swivel Spread: This three-band stereo width plugin allows you to set the crossover points and adjust the stereo spread for the lows, mids, and highs independently. The "sub rolloff" feature can automatically ensure frequencies below a set point are mono.

Boz Digital Labs Pan Knob: Originally designed for panning, this plugin includes a crossover point that keeps frequencies below a certain threshold in the center, while letting you pan the frequencies above it. It is particularly effective for improving headphone mixes and maintaining mono compatibility.

iZotope Ozone Imager 2: A popular, free plugin that offers a straightforward way to widen or narrow your sounds. It includes a "low bypass" feature that keeps the low frequencies in mono while allowing you to expand the stereo image of the rest of the signal.

Waves Center: This plugin allows you to control the center and side levels of a stereo track. It includes a special "Low" control that preserves the levels of low-frequency sounds mixed to the center, making it easy to create a powerful stereo image while keeping the bass mono.

Waves Vitamin: A multi-band enhancer with five frequency bands and variable crossover frequencies. You can control the stereo width of each band independently, making it easy to collapse the low end to mono and expand the highs.


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My general goal is to take advantage of the stereo field to some degree, but hopefully not have the user particularly aware of it.

As you note, bass is omnidirectional. As a rule then, it's placed in the center. If nothing else, it stays out of the way instruments that you want to be heard in a stereo field.

Main vocals also go into the center, because putting them into the stereo field is just distracting. Panning for harmonies depends on how much I want the user to notice them.

Keys and guitars will be placed on opposite sides, as will similar combinations so they are balanced and the user doesn't hear more in one ear than the other.

Lead instruments will be placed slightly off-center to held separate them from vocals.

Of course, I'm willing to break these "rules" as I feel fit. laugh

In addition to panning, I like to add some sort of room modeling. I've used a lot of different VSTs for this, but the free version of Panagement remains one of my favorites. It seems to do something really nice to sounds.

That said, I don't think that panning is a very effective way to get everything to be heard. As Herb suggested, each instrument lives in a particular place in the spectrum, so using EQ to ensure that each stays there is a good idea. That is, cut frequencies above and below for each instrument that doesn't need to be heard. It's often suggested to have a low-pass filter on instruments to keep low-frequency mud from accumulating.

If there are instruments that are stepping on each other in similar frequencies, the most effective thing to do is figure out which is more important, and get rid of the other.

In cases where that can't be done - like where a string pad is encroaching on the intelligibility of the vocal - I use TrackSpacer to make space. Unlike a traditional ducker, it only lowers the portion of the audio where the frequencies overlap, so you don't get the "ducking" effect.

And as Herb said, using volume envelopes is great to bring in an instrument only where it's needed, and pushing it to the background (or removing it entirely) when it doesn't need to be noticed.

I think you can only expect a listener to pay attention to two things at a time, like the melody and a countermelody. A good mix makes it easy for the listener to focus on those one or two items, and keep everything else out of the way.


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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Regarding the number of tracks in a mix:

1. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

2. Less is more.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

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Brno Offline OP
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Thanks. Mike: Would you please give my a link to that plug-in. It would be handy.

Last edited by Brno; 10/03/25 01:13 AM.
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Brno Offline OP
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Thank you all for your usefull advices.

I'm using volume envelope for the backing band and of course in fade in or out.

I'm very carefull with EQ in the acoustic instruments, so I don't ruin their natural sound. I try to immitate a live act as far as possible, so I leave also the natural masking effect of overlapping sound sources, but also try to avoid it by separating them in sound picture in both the horizontal and depth dimension.

t all depends of the music genre: in some songs, where rhythm is important, I pan bass even 50% to left to bring it out.

I agree, that very often less is more: I at first take many real tracks from BB and then record with Reaper my own tracks. Then I very often build the song first muting most of the tracks and then adding and changing tracks. Even if I have recorded my own track for hours to get it right, I finally cut it out, if it doesn't fit the song, which is heartbraking.

But how about that placing of the sound sources in the depth direction in the sound picture? I learned from one of the greatest music recording expert in Finland, that delaying the backing instruments a bit (under 10 ms), brings out the solists, because then you hear them first. So it is in the live performances, where solits are in the front stage.
If it's a large area, they even use loudspeakerclusters far away from the stage overdelayd, so that it feels like the sound is coming from the stage, because you see the sound sources there, while the sound is actually coming from the closest loudspeaker. Psychoacustic is interesting, isn't it?

This is just my working process, which is build during the last six years, when retired I have had time to produce music at my modest home studio.

It helped, that I learned the basics of acoustics and electroacoustics, while I was founding and even the head of the sound and lighting department of the Theatre Academy of Finland in the end of the 1980s and co-wrote "Audiokirja" in Finnish, which they still use as a text book. Audio technology has developed since specially thanks to digital technology, but not so much in the electro acoustics. But mixing and mastering is new to me and I found this forum a very usefull to learn new tricks of the trade from you guys. So thaks again.

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Originally Posted by Brno
Thanks. Mike: Would you please give my a link to that plug-in. It would be handy.

Sure

Ozone Imager V2 (Free)

This is currently on sale for $5 — yeaterday was $49. You will have to create an account and log in to see the price.

BOZ Digital Pan Knob 2

[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]


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Originally Posted by Brno
But how about that placing of the sound sources in the depth direction in the sound picture? I learned from one of the greatest music recording expert in Finland, that delaying the backing instruments a bit (under 10 ms), brings out the solists, because then you hear them first. So it is in the live performances, where solits are in the front stage.
I'm not sold that some 10ms delay is going to highlight one performer over another.

Sure, the psychoacoustics works out, but it would be better to avoid the conflict in the first place.

After all, a good mix should work even if it's rendered in mono.

With live performances, this happens by the players listening to each other. They know what is the current focus, and if it's not them, they move into a supporting role, staying out of the way. If it's a bass solo, that may mean that everyone but the drums sits out. Same thing if another soloist is coming up - they'll drop out before their entrance, so it has more impact when they come on.

If someone's not lead, they'll make sure what they play stays out of the way - something simple, and rhythmic instead of melodic.

It's like a painting, where there artist adds all sorts of subtle details so that the eye is led to a particular point in the canvas. Only with music, it's dynamic, so they ear follows the interplay and changes.

To me, a spacious sound stage is good, but not central to getting clarity in a mix.

Using a delay is also a way to place an instrument in the stereo field. That is, there are some panning plugins that add a delay time between the two ears instead of changing the amplitude to place a sound in the stereo field. Pretty cool, but I wouldn't do that manually. You're using the delay time to add depth, not width.


-- David Cuny

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Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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I'm not a big fan of those so called "wideners". To my ears they sound like a nasty phase shifter most of the time, which is what they are.

To get a better sounding W I D E track.... just record the same instrument exactly the same on two different tracks. Hard pan each one 100% opposite the other. I use this quite often (although not recently) on acoustic guitars.

As far as using a delay to make a solo pop..... no thanks. Again, just bring the solo instrument up in the mix and remove everything else that is not necessary. And I do mean everything. When you have a solo instrument up front with the rhythm section holding the groove and maybe a B3 bubbling low in the mix, or a clean electric guitar down low, it's gonna sound good and be easy to hear everything.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Brno Offline OP
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Thanks again. I agree to avoid any unnesessary processing of tracks. Very often they cause more troubles, like phase distortion, then solve. I think the same is valid in live performances as well as producing, specially acoustic music: the key is to have a balance in the band, in live cases at the stage and in production in mixes. First I try to make the balance with arrangement (there comes my artist name: Arri), then I use as little as possible effecting. But that's just my way, because I'm a fan of folk and root music.

One other thing we have to deal with is, that when we mix our production in hifi environment, most of the people listen them in pour listening environment: even with mobile phones in noisy background. I'm using SoundID Reference from Sonar, both to calibrate my headphones I'm mixing with (not to disturb others at home) and to check, how my master mix sounds in cars, TV-sets, mobile phones and lapstops using their loudspeakers. It works quite well. The vocals should be heard even in mono with the loudspeakers of a cheap mobile phone, because mostly people listen to the vocals, not the instruments, which is a pity for us instrumentalist. https://www.sonarworks.com/soundid-reference/integrations/audient-oria-mini

PS. This is a great forum to discuss issues rising while working with Band in a Box (but more with Reaper).

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As always, I seem to be the odd one out (again 🤷‍♀️): bass in the center, kick and snare center, lead vocals center, and everything else panned hard left/right.
So far, no one has complained about my mixes, at least not about the panning.
But I only make pop/rock music.

If something in one of my songs doesn't _seem_ to be panned hard L/R, it's because it's a stereo recording (e.g., overhead microphones) and the instruments are placed where the recording engineer positioned them during recording.
But, by definition, stereo is always panned L/R.

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Originally Posted by B.D.Thomas
As always, I seem to be the odd one out (again 🤷‍♀️): bass in the center, kick and snare center, lead vocals center, and everything else panned hard left/right.
So far, no one has complained about my mixes, at least not about the panning.
But I only make pop/rock music.
......................................

Brian, you are not alone. I also have the bass, kick and snare, and a lot of the time my lead instrument dead center. If I have two or more lead instruments they might be a little left and/or right of center because in the real world they would not be standing on top of each other. Everything else is panned left or right. I do this in every genre of music I produce.


I arrived early to a restaurant.
The manager asks, "do you mind waiting a bit?"
I said no.
"Good", he said. "Take these drinks to table 3"

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Years ago, my wife bought the Beatles Box Set.... everything they had released in one convenient box. It had been completely remastered so I figured it would be excellent. I popped the CD's in and listened and it sounded good. Then, since at the time I was doing a lot of traveling with my business, I loaded the entire box set onto my MP3 player to carry alone and listen on the long drives. I was appalled to discover that they had hard panned ALL the vocals to one side and ALL of the instruments to the opposite side. Not something that was pleasant to listen to with cans and buds. Unfortunately, my MP3 player didn't have the option to do mono. I ended up having to run it through the stereo system in my truck which was less than optimal due to the noise of the truck and the road. Seriously disappointing.

Who makes such a decision or a mistake which a band as big as the Beatles were/are, that they would put out the ultimate box set, remastered, and panned like that?

Note: I heard that it was an apprentice in the studio, who was instructed to ship the final copies to the distributor. No one checked that the mix was "correct" and before it was caught, it had been printed to disc and packaged. Ship it! Whether that is true or not..... IDK. I can't be the only person who listened and said WTF?


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Originally Posted by B.D.Thomas
As always, I seem to be the odd one out (again 🤷‍♀️): bass in the center, kick and snare center, lead vocals center, and everything else panned hard left/right.
Every one of my mixes starts like this (and most of them end up like this too!)

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There's a reason that people like LCR (left/center/right). Like a lot of systems, it works and prevents you from getting all fancy where it doesn't need to be.

Me... I don't mind getting myself into occasional trouble. wink


-- David Cuny

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Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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Originally Posted by B.D.Thomas
As always, I seem to be the odd one out (again 🤷‍♀️): bass in the center, kick and snare center, lead vocals center, and everything else panned hard left/right.
So far, no one has complained about my mixes, at least not about the panning.
But I only make pop/rock music.

If something in one of my songs doesn't _seem_ to be panned hard L/R, it's because it's a stereo recording (e.g., overhead microphones) and the instruments are placed where the recording engineer positioned them during recording.
But, by definition, stereo is always panned L/R.

Like Mario, I mostly do this, too. I'll convert any stereo guitar tracks to mono and pan them hard. I might let stereo strings or piano stay as-is or pan slightly left or right. I might pan an acoustic guitar less than full left or right. But there's a lot of extremism going on.


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Originally Posted by Guitarhacker
Years ago, my wife bought the Beatles Box Set.... everything they had released in one convenient box. It had been completely remastered so I figured it would be excellent. I popped the CD's in and listened and it sounded good. Then, since at the time I was doing a lot of traveling with my business, I loaded the entire box set onto my MP3 player to carry alone and listen on the long drives. I was appalled to discover that they had hard panned ALL the vocals to one side and ALL of the instruments to the opposite side. Not something that was pleasant to listen to with cans and buds. Unfortunately, my MP3 player didn't have the option to do mono. I ended up having to run it through the stereo system in my truck which was less than optimal due to the noise of the truck and the road. Seriously disappointing.

Who makes such a decision or a mistake which a band as big as the Beatles were/are, that they would put out the ultimate box set, remastered, and panned like that?

Note: I heard that it was an apprentice in the studio, who was instructed to ship the final copies to the distributor. No one checked that the mix was "correct" and before it was caught, it had been printed to disc and packaged. Ship it! Whether that is true or not..... IDK. I can't be the only person who listened and said WTF?

I used to love to pan those early Beatles 8-tracks(!) in the car and hear either a glorious acapella version of the song or sing my own version over (basically) a karaoke track. Am sure I absorbed a lot of cool musical knowledge that way.

But yes, it does sound weird otherwise.

The story as I understand it is that the boys recorded on 2-track tape for mixdown to mono back in the day. One track for instruments and another for vocals. So when stereo came out, the producers did the best with what they had. Which wasn't great, but had some interesting (to me) fringe benefits...


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