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Journeyman
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I certainly don't mean to derail the thread, but A.I. this, A.I. that, A.I. ready?
Wouldn't it be better if we could just think for ourselves? I don't really know where all of this A.I. dependency is leading, but long term I don't think it can be good. I know what you mean. I watched this video the other day and made me wonder the same thing. Google AI with Logic Pro
BIAB 2026 Ultrapack- Studio One Pro 7 Windows 11, Mac Mini M4 with Logic Pro 11, Melodyne Studio, Luna Pro
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And when AI becomes included in these instruments the capabilities will surely skyrocket. Why would you think that? 😕 Most AI is cloud based because there are zillions of elements that are processed. I don't see how any of that would impact these keyboards. Predicting exactly where any new technology will go is always a gamble. But here are a few thoughts that I see on the horizon regarding arranger keyboards. AI could wade thru the zillions of available onboard styles and drum patterns to down-select to the top 2 or 3 that blend with what you’re working on. AI could improve the realism of onboard voices by learning from real recordings. Some of these keyboards have horrid voices. Imagine telling your keyboard “Hey I don’t like the sound of that clarinet, can you improve it?” AI could generate practice drills tailored to your weaknesses or help you improvise over chord changes. Think onboard personal tutor. Based on a backing track on a thumb drive in its USB port that you are jamming along with, AI (in real-time) could alter the song by filling in for missing band members and allow you jam over a fresh rendition of the chord progression; perhaps in an entirely different style at a different tempo with different instruments. If you don't like the style it has chosen, push a button to guide it to what you want. The list could go on and on if I had more time and imagination. Place yourself back in the 1800’s and ask yourself this question. “What applications could there be for this new-fangled thing called software?”
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Yeah, all that needs a demand.
People are already just generating whole songs online.
I think they jumped right over keyboards, if that's your thing.
Why would they back fill that at this point?
Personally I like doing my own stuff.
Use BiaB to get an idea across? Sure.
Eventually the fun for me is getting a group together that can play that, as a group with their own playing/interpretation..
AI doesn't need that? True, and I don't need AI to do it. <grin>
Sorry, but I see AI ruining art by simply reusing existing stuff forever.
It has an endless supply of variations, but original performance in the true sense, not so much.
Last edited by rharv; 10/14/25 06:36 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Again, all these are predicated on AI being in the cloud, because it's far too much to download. And if you could, why would you when the cloud exists? We're talking about arranging keyboards here, which are stand-alone. The two are mutually exclusive. I could easily see AI-powered solutions replacing arranging keyboards, but that's a whole 'nother thing.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Yeah, you may be surprised to find out how little processing power a keyboard uses compared to what AI requires.
Two different worlds.
Who is going to buy a $59,000 keyboard?
They may start claiming a given keyboard uses AI, but that would be stretch.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..
Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up
Last edited by rharv; 10/15/25 06:58 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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To paraphrase Lewis Caroll's Humpty Dumpty, "When I use the term AI, it means just what I choose it to mean...".
Everything now from tiny microprocessors through PCs to giant server farms all now have "AI". It's become a crazy and nebulous term.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
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That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up Quite an idea, indeed.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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And when AI becomes included in these instruments the capabilities will surely skyrocket. Why would you think that? 😕 Most AI is cloud based because there are zillions of elements that are processed. I don't see how any of that would impact these keyboards. Once again, I’ll give you more examples; this time where AI is running locally on products shipping today. Google has local AI vision and inference engines running on security cameras. Apple Intelligence is doing similar on iPhone, iPad and Watch. Sony has a local real-time AI running on a subject tracking camera. Tesla is shipping on-vehicle AI compute software/FSD that is integrated with their Autopilot system. Therefore, designing self-contained AI engines into arranger keyboards is quite possible and will be available commercially soon if not now. I think you are cross-confusing huge general-purpose LLMs that are running on giant server farms (which is one specific implementation only) with other AI implementations, some of which are highly specific and have much smaller footprints. See above for examples. I have personally written AI/ANN algorithms that will easily fit on a small thumb drive. Why would I think this? Quite simply for reasons of market share if you are a developer and for enhanced capability if you are a consumer. AI and arranger (or other) keyboards are most definitely NOT mutually exclusive.To be sure, there are some awfully smart people working awfully hard on this AI application. I’ve said that AI will impact every domain from agriculture to zoology and everything in between and day-by-day I see this happening. If you research this subject you will find the same. I have observed that there are 4 types of companies or individuals regarding technology adoption. Type A: Those that actively develop and deploy cutting-edge technology: Sam Altman, OpenAI and others Type B: Those that early-adopt new technology into their workflows and processes as needed Type C: Those that are caught surprised (or deny) when new technology appears and then scramble to catch up if they are able Type D: Those that refuse to adopt/use a given technology altogether: the Amish are an example PS> Yamaha, a Type A company, clearly disagrees with you regarding the two being mutually exclusive. View this website on their YOO project. Project YOO
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I think you are cross-confusing huge general-purpose LLMs that are running on giant server farms (which is one specific implementation only) with other AI implementations, some of which are highly specific and have much smaller footprints. See above for examples. I have personally written AI/ANN algorithms that will easily fit on a small thumb drive. NNs can be quite small - SynthV is a case in point, as are other NNs that resynthesize vocals and instruments. So you're right - it's possible to do this and fit into a small device. But with the ubiquity of cloud services, I'm having trouble understanding why a company would want to take that route. Call it a lack of vision, but given the option between locking users into a subscription model vs trying to sell a more limited model, I think the first option has a lot more appeal. Even for the use case where a user wants a backing track, it would make more sense (to me) to have this performed in the cloud (via AI), and then for that rendered backing track be delivered in sections (intro/verse/ending/etc.) that could be switched to live during performance. By way of analogy, think of BiaB RealTracks. An AI could generate new RTs dynamically, or it could generate them in the cloud and deliver them to you to use locally. The option to deliver them after building them in the cloud means that PG Music would have the cost of maintaining the infrastructure in the cloud, and you'd get the part you care about: the backing tracks. Since the RTs or backing tracks are the final product, there's little compelling reason to have them generated locally - as long as it can be seamless. So it's possible, but I suspect that's not the route it'll go.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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YOO is 7 year old project. Has it created an instrument yet? Seriously asking as I have not seen one.
They debuted that at a conference in 2018.
Last edited by rharv; 10/17/25 01:15 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..
Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up I think this is essentially already done. Korg PA5X
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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That uses Biab Generation?
Or are you being disingenuous ..
Or what does this have to do with AI?
<confused>
That said it is impressive for what it does, though that video is pretty crappy sounding; I don't transfer that to the product
Last edited by rharv; 10/17/25 08:12 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..
Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up I think this is essentially already done. Korg PA5XI think most good arranger keyboards and modules have done that for some years, haven't they? Korg, Yamaha and Ketron I'm pretty sure. The Ketron Event uses samples a bit like RealTracks, though I think the others are still mostly(?) MIDI-type samples. BiaB can still sound better than any of them, I think.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..
Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up I think this is essentially already done. Korg PA5XHoly crap! It's $5k. That's a bit much.. You could have 10 BiaBs for that.
Last edited by rharv; 10/18/25 06:37 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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NNs can be quite small - SynthV is a case in point, as are other NNs that resynthesize vocals and instruments.
So you're right - it's possible to do this and fit into a small device.
But with the ubiquity of cloud services, I'm having trouble understanding why a company would want to take that route. Call it a lack of vision, but given the option between locking users into a subscription model vs trying to sell a more limited model, I think the first option has a lot more appeal. I need to leave subscription/no-subscription business models to the guys with bow ties and business degrees. My main point is that AI is showing up in products that are both stand-alone and connected to the web. And that in theory, either strategy could be embedded into arranger keyboards. For company xyz, and product abc, it's a business decision. But I'm not seeking a keyboard that is necessarily AI-powered, only one that is hands-free/chord progression-powered and has a wide variety of styles and grooves to choose from. The good news is that there are a few on the market. So the search goes on to be followed by a down-select.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I have stayed out of this conversation as I have little knowledge about chord sequencer keyboards but I hope someone can help me understand. I watched the video and it looked like it took a number of presses on the touch screen to get a chord sequence. I have DLed a MIDI song, brought it into BiaB so the chords are inserted into the chord window, picked a style, then pressed generate. I can also have a BiaB demo song put into the chord window. IMHO, and I may be wrong about this, both processes are easy to execute and have thousands of styles to pick from in the styles window. Note that I can use both RTs or MIDI styles. Granted PGM could have a better filtering system for picking a style but to me BiaB is the better route to take. YMMV
PS - Steve this is no knock against you or anyone else into chord sequencer keyboards. I'm just trying to understand. Noted that you will need a keyboard along with BiaB so that is another expense.
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But I'm not seeking a keyboard that is necessarily AI-powered, only one that is hands-free/chord progression-powered and has a wide variety of styles and grooves to choose from. The good news is that there are a few on the market. So the search goes on to be followed by a down-select. That sounds like you don't even need the keys, just the sequencer and sounds. If you don't too much mind having a Laptop/PC with you, ... Would BiaB and a good MIDI generator work for you? I'm thinking Ketron SD100 or a used Roland Sound Canvas or similar. Or, would something like vArranger be suitable? It does play chord sequences. If you don't want the laptop/PC, would a Raspberry Pi driving an SD1000 work? My own hang-up with all of those is the mess of wall warts and cables they demand. Maybe that's also a killer for you.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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<< But I'm not seeking a keyboard that is necessarily AI-powered, only one that is hands-free/chord progression-powered and has a wide variety of styles and grooves to choose from. >>It would be interesting to hear how you would be implementing your concept live. There was a good discussion back in November 2023 very similar to this one with some thoughtful suggestions about triggering BIAB audio snippets in live performances. Some of the discussion was centered around the Ketron Event Arranger Keyboard with Musocity demonstrating a program he designed for BIAB to be triggered direct from ram. (This concept has since been implemented in BIAB) Musocity: "... video example, these are the actual wma sections that Biab plays after it has decompressed them into RAM. Reaper is playing all the wma sections of all different files direct from disk (RealTracks and Drum folders on Biab USB 3.0 drive), markers have been added to every beat so transitions will occur on the next beat rather than next measure, so as I input a chord it will go to that chord on the next beat seamlessly:" It's possible to convert Musocity's concept onto Yamaha PSR Keyboards that doesn't require a computer when performing live. New 2024 Products Revitalizing PG Music
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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I think most good arranger keyboards and modules have done that for some years, haven't they? Korg, Yamaha and Ketron I'm pretty sure.
The Ketron Event uses samples a bit like RealTracks, though I think the others are still mostly(?) MIDI-type samples. BiaB can still sound better than any of them, I think. Hey Gordon, I hadn't heard of Keytron, thanks for putting it on my radar. From what I can see, this is another extremely powerful instrument. I wonder why this brand is not carried by GuitarCenter here in the States. And although the multi-bass looks like a great feature, no way am I going to let this (or any) machine have all the fun  Keytron Event
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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