<...snip...> Even though one might say that learning/being successful in music is for the privileged and fortunate and that the earlier you start the better, there are notable exceptions. Think Dolly Parton and Brenda Lee.
That gets me to the question of what is the definition of being successful?
I started young, my first gig was when I was in Jr. High school. When I was rejected by the military (4F) I joined a road band. Eventually, we opened concerts for big stars with #1 hits on Billboard. We were courted by Motown to be the first all white rock band to be on the Motown family of labels, but negations broke down over money. When Motown dropped us, the other labels ghosted us, too.
Motown wanted to pay 2 cents per record, and take exaggerated recording, promotion and distribution costs out of our royalties. Then they wanted to own our name, be our sole publisher, and give half our songwriting royalties to a ghostwriter who did nothing. They quit talking when our manager tried to get 2.5 cents per record.
So we got close, were treated as equals by the stars of the day, but never made the big time.
But for most of my life, I've made a living playing music. When I was young, and especially in that road band, I had romances with quite a few pretty young women.
Years later, I joined a 5-piece band, fell in love with one of the musicians, and when that band had personnel problems, broke off and started a duo with her. I eventually married her.
That was in 1985 and the only time we were out of work was during the COVID lockdown. We live a modest life, not luxurious, not poor and the mortgage is paid off plus we have no debt. We are happy, still in love, still best friends, and enjoy making a living doing what we would do for free.
I didn't become the big star I dreamed about when I was young. But I'm living a very happy life.
So is that considered a success?
Happy life? I think so.
And I still haven't mastered sax, wind synth flute, guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, or vocals. But I'm better at all of them than I was last year.
Plus, his father was a professional musician, and was parading his children around Europe as musical freaks prodigies once he had trained them.
Levitin sets up a literary “strawman” so as to amplify the real point he wants to make when he knocks it down. And I think you correctly identified this. After he sets up the strawman, he says on page 194:
First there are factual errors in this account: Mozart didn’t begin composing until he was six, and he didn’t write his first symphony until he was eight. Still, writing a symphony at age eight is unusual, to say the least. And Mozart had extensive training from his father, who was widely considered to be the greatest living music teacher in all of Europe at the time. We don’t know how much Mozart practiced, but if he started at age two and worked thirty-two hours a week at it (quite possible, given his father’s reputation as a stern taskmaster) he would have made his ten thousand hours by the age of eight.
So it appears that Levitin is standing by the 10k hour theory. And I would add that the QUALITY of the hours is at least as important as the quantity of hours. Presumably, Mozart recieved very high quality instruction. So on one level, what Mozart accomplished could be expected? That is to say, take most any newborn and provide the same instruction, discipline and control that Mozart received and you may find similar musical brilliance.
I think the main point he’s making here is that the concept of the natural-born musical genius might not hold water. Rather, years of blood, sweat and tears are required (by everyone) to become an expert in music and it’s all about building strong neural networks. And that everything else being equal, those that are born into a favorable household (including in the womb) will progress faster and go further than those born into an unfavorable one.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
There are people who can't carry the tune for Happy Birthday song, (sometimes even after lessons!) Don't tell me you've never heard them. We're all different, which is good. mostly
Natural talent (or a knack for something) is a thing
Last edited by rharv; 12/24/2502:33 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Natural talent (or a knack for something) is a thing
I've been in this business for a looooong time. I also used to give private lessons on saxophone. Some people get it quickly, some never get it, no matter how hard they work.
I knew a gigging keyboard player once who didn't have much talent. He played the songs mechanically well. Even after gigging for a living for years, you could see he was working with the keyboard. He was not one with the instrument. Plus, everything was stiff with very little emotional phrasing or dynamics. This is probably why most of his gigs were background music gigs at restaurants. He was a nice guy though. He moved from the area decades ago, I hope he is still gigging.
That gets me to the question of what is the definition of being successful?
Regarding the definition of being musically successful, I think we need to recognize 2 things. 1. That musical success is also on a spectrum and not Boolean 2. The context
If the context is global (Dolly Parton and Brenda Lee were mentioned above), Levitin might ask the following questions.
How many gold and platinum albums has the artist/performer sold? How many total albums were sold? What was the largest gig performed? How many international concerts were played? How many late-night TV interviews and “Ed Sullivan” appearances were made? What do other globally successful musicians have to say about the artist? What top-shelf-expert musicians and orchestras were collaborated with? Was the artist honored by being inducted into xyz hall of fame? How many Grammy and other awards were won? How has the artist meaningfully advanced his/her genre(s)? How many books have been written about the artist’s story and his accomplishments? Whether alive or dead, what level of influence did the artist have? How many documentaries and movies were made on the artist? What level of connection does the artist have with his fan base? In short, how deep is the artist’s resume, credentials and influence?
I don’t know the answers for Dolly and Brenda Lee, but I’ll bet that info isn’t too hard to find.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
There are people who can't carry the tune for Happy Birthday song, (sometimes even after lessons!) Don't tell me you've never heard them.
Bob, I don’t know what you are “nah manning” about. As near as I can tell Levitin isn’t saying there are no tone-deaf people out there. . . quite the contrary.
Isabella Peretz discovered a patient who had absolute pitch but is tone deaf! He can name notes perfectly, but he cannot sing to save his life.
Of course there are tone-deaf people out there. How could there not be?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
That gets me to the question of what is the definition of being successful?
Regarding the definition of being musically successful, I think we need to recognize 2 things. 1. That musical success is also on a spectrum and not Boolean 2. The context ...........................................
FWIW - Here are my definitions of musical success: 1-Those who are assigned to major record companies, tour, and make it big time. 2-Those who make a living via music, not including those in #1. This includes bands, music teachers, and orchestras. 3-Those who have made money playing music as an avocation. 4-Those who just sit at home and enjoy making music.
These are just my definitions and yours may vary. Feel free to modify my lists.
PS - I would put Notes in the #2 definition and myself in first #3 and now in #4.
{edit} added music teachers to the list
Last edited by MarioD; 12/26/2509:50 AM.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I knew a gigging keyboard player once who didn't have much talent. He played the songs mechanically well. Even after gigging for a living for years, you could see he was working with the keyboard. He was not one with the instrument. Plus, everything was stiff with very little emotional phrasing or dynamics. This is probably why most of his gigs were background music gigs at restaurants. He was a nice guy though. He moved from the area decades ago, I hope he is still gigging.
We had a flautist in my choir. She didn't play anything flashy, but she was always musical. So it was great listening to her play.
I used to do wedding gigs with my choir director. I got the job because I was reliable and was able to play with some level of feeling. I got the job after her prior - and much better pianist - failed to show up for a wedding. I wasn't "good" - just "good enough".
I'd often have to simplify the music so that I could play it, but it's better to be able to play something well and be able to add phrasing and dynamics, instead of playing it un-musically. It's a musican's job to understand and interpret the work for the listener.
I spent over 20 years dedicated to jazz guitar. Listened to it, studied it, played it, LIVED it. Alas, I've got a few nice sounding, showy pieces I can play, but I'm not an expert, or even a 'jazz guitarist' by my definition. I mean, the guys who can really play that stuff are WAY beyond my reach. They just are. It was still a good investment, since I learned a lot about music and probably more about myself than I wanted to know. When I returned to popular music styles about 10 years ago I found I had an extra gear that I didn't have before, and it's quite nice to have in reserve.
Related side story. At my first real job, a couple of the old timers were regaling us newcomers with stories and advice. One of them frequently referenced his "30 years of experience" on the job. After he excused himself and walked away, the other old timer said, "Truth be told, he has one year of experience 30 times". Ouch!
But I can relate with jazz guitar.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
That gets me to the question of what is the definition of being successful?
Regarding the definition of being musically successful, I think we need to recognize 2 things. 1. That musical success is also on a spectrum and not Boolean 2. The context ...........................................
FWIW - Here are my definitions of musical success: 1-Those who are assigned to major record companies, tour, and make it big time. 2-Those who make a living via music, not including those in #1. This includes bands, music teachers, and orchestras. 3-Those who have made money playing music as an avocation. 4-Those who just sit at home and enjoy making music.
These are just my definitions and yours may vary. Feel free to modify my lists.
PS - I would put Notes in the #2 definition and myself in first #3 and now in #4.
{edit} added music teachers to the list
Are you providing definitions of musical success, or musician categories? I think categories.
Chapter 7 is interesting. It’s also important to distinguish celebrity from expertise. The factors that contribute to celebrity would be different from, maybe wholly unrelated to, those that contribute to expertise. Neil Young told me that he did not consider himself especially talented as a musician, rather, he was one of the lucky ones who managed to become commercially successful. Few people get to pass through the turnstiles of a deal with a major record label, and fewer still maintain careers for decades as Neil has done.
In my humble opinion, I'd say Neil is a talented muscian and a top-shelf songwriter, plus I love his stuff
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
That gets me to the question of what is the definition of being successful?
Regarding the definition of being musically successful, I think we need to recognize 2 things. 1. That musical success is also on a spectrum and not Boolean 2. The context ...........................................
FWIW - Here are my definitions of musical success: 1-Those who are assigned to major record companies, tour, and make it big time. 2-Those who make a living via music, not including those in #1. This includes bands, music teachers, and orchestras. 3-Those who have made money playing music as an avocation. 4-Those who just sit at home and enjoy making music.
These are just my definitions and yours may vary. Feel free to modify my lists.
PS - I would put Notes in the #2 definition and myself in first #3 and now in #4.
{edit} added music teachers to the list
Thanks for adding the teachers. I owe them a lot.
I don't know that I personally would include #4. I enjoy photography, and think I'm at least decent at it, but don't consider that a success, just a nice hobby.
But then, the definition of successful could mean the meal I cooked last night turned out the way I planned it.
FWIW - Here are my definitions of musical success: ...............................................
Are you providing definitions of musical success, or musician categories? I think categories.
Chapter 7 is interesting. It’s also important to distinguish celebrity from expertise. The factors that contribute to celebrity would be different from, maybe wholly unrelated to, those that contribute to expertise. Neil Young told me that he did not consider himself especially talented as a musician, rather, he was one of the lucky ones who managed to become commercially successful. Few people get to pass through the turnstiles of a deal with a major record label, and fewer still maintain careers for decades as Neil has done.
In my humble opinion, I'd say Neil is a talented muscian and a top-shelf songwriter, plus I love his stuff [/quote]
As I clearly stated those are my my definitions of musical success. One can be successful in all 4 categories. I suppose it could be described as categories but to me categories would be beginner, intermediate, pro, as well as country artist, jazz artist, etc.
I agree. Neil is a very talented musician and songwriter. I have read a number of recorded musicians say the same thing. I believe they are just being modest and not bragging about how good they really are. YMMV
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I don't know that I personally would include #4. I enjoy photography, and think I'm at least decent at it, but don't consider that a success, just a nice hobby.
But then, the definition of successful could mean the meal I cooked last night turned out the way I planned it.
Same here Notes. I owe a lot to my music teachers.
I also enjoy photography. FWIW if I take a picture, run it through my photography software, and it comes out looking great I think I was successful. I feel the same way about making music in that if I write a song worth posting then I was successful. Others may call it a personal goal.
As we both have indicated the term success is ambiguous.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I mean, the guys who can really play that stuff are WAY beyond my reach. They just are. It was still a good investment, since I learned a lot about music and probably more about myself than I wanted to know.
I hear ya man. But the best that we can play is the best we can play and I wouldn't let that slow you down, continued growth is my goal. Studying and playing an instrument will always pay dividends; and I don't necessarily mean money or fame.
Chapter 8 begins with a thought-provoking paragraph.
You wake from a deep sleep and open your eyes. It’s dark. The distant regular beating at the periphery of your hearing is still there. You rub your eyes with your hands, but you can’t make out any shapes or forms. Time passes, but how long? Half an hour? One hour? Then you hear a different recognizable sound – an amorphous, moving, wiggly sound with fast beating, a pounding that you can feel in your feet. The sounds start and stop without definition. Gradually building up and dying down, they weave together with no clear beginnings or endings. These familiar sounds are comforting, you’ve heard them before. As you listen, you have a vague notion of what will come next, and it does, even as the sounds remain remote and muddled, as though you’re listening underwater. Inside the womb, surrounded by amniotic fluid, the fetus hears sounds.
Hmmm, I wonder if Joe "BonaMonster's" mother listened to blues while carrying him.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
But for most of my life, I've made a living playing music. When I was young, and especially in that road band, I had romances with quite a few pretty young women.
In the section that Levitin tries to tackle the question of where did music come from, he argues that it’s not an evolutionary spandrel.
Music may indicate biological and sexual fitness, serving to attract mates. Darwin believed that music preceded speech as a means of courtship, equating music with the peacock’s tail. In his theory of sexual selection, Darwin posited the emergence of features that served no direct survival purpose other than to make oneself (and hence one’s genes) attractive.
“Music evolved and continues to function as a courtship display, mostly broadcast by young males to attract females,” Miller argues.
We all remember the hysterical females when the Beatles played the Ed Sullivan show and how young women would throw their under-things at Tom Jones.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
When I was very young, I knew girls had a thing for star singers, but not for musicians in general.
I got my first gig when I was in Jr. high, probably 8th grade. It was for a school dance. I was in a band with my buddies, we were terrible, but back then, everybody was.
So there I was, on stage, with my best friends, having a great time, while we were trying to cover the hits of the day the best that we could. I looked down and that cute girl, who wouldn't even acknowledge my existence in English class, was smiling and 'making eyes' at me.
That's when I said, “This is what I want to do for the rest of my life!”
When I was very young, I knew girls had a thing for star singers, but not for musicians in general.
I got my first gig when I was in Jr. high, probably 8th grade. It was for a school dance. I was in a band with my buddies, we were terrible, but back then, everybody was.
So there I was, on stage, with my best friends, having a great time, while we were trying to cover the hits of the day the best that we could. I looked down and that cute girl, who wouldn't even acknowledge my existence in English class, was smiling and 'making eyes' at me.
That's when I said, “This is what I want to do for the rest of my life!”
The reason I started playing guitar was because I saw other guitarist get the girls! The irony is that the one I married I did not meet at a gig.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Apparently I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'd invite a girl to the show instead of hoping to find one in the crowd .. <sigh> By the time we finished playing I just wanted to go home and get some sleep.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
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