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I have Cakewalk synths and use mainly Real tracks. Does this bring anything to the table in terms of quality compared to what I already have with Cakewalk? I purchased the latest 2010.5 upgrade on a hard drive but didn't notice it anywhere.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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There is a Forte Wavetable dxi packaged with BIAB is mainly for 64 bit Windows users. The also included Roland VSC/dxi does not work on 64 bit - thus the Forte inclusion. The quality is about the same as the Windows midi sounds, pretty lame. The Coyote Forte dxi sold by BIAB is pretty good if you want to check it out.
R
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Quote:
I have Cakewalk synths and use mainly Real tracks. Does this bring anything to the table in terms of quality compared to what I already have with Cakewalk? I purchased the latest 2010.5 upgrade on a hard drive but didn't notice it anywhere.
Probably not. Most Cakewalk products include the TTS-1 synth and that's better than the wavetable. All that wavetable is btw is a program that uses your onboard soundchip as a DXi. The sound quality is still your el cheapo motherboard's sound chip. The reason for having it is when using Win 7 64 bit the Roland VSC won't work so this was PG's way of including some kind of sound for Win 7 64 bit users. Just to be precise it's called the Coyote wavetable synth. The Forte DXi is a completely different synth that uses Gigasamples and sounds decent for $40. Of course neither of these sounds close to the Ketron SD2 or another high end synth but those cost way more than either free or $40.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for the info. I have some good hardware and software synths but I like to start with a simple midi player for a fast start with auditioning style and tracks. I currently use the TTS for getting started and then substitute later as needed. You both saved me the time of trying it out.
Thnks again.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Quote:
I have Cakewalk synths and use mainly Real tracks. Does this bring anything to the table in terms of quality compared to what I already have with Cakewalk? I purchased the latest 2010.5 upgrade on a hard drive but didn't notice it anywhere.
.......... All that wavetable is btw is a program that uses your onboard soundchip as a DXi. The sound quality is still your el cheapo motherboard's sound chip. The reason for having it is when using Win 7 64 bit the Roland VSC won't work so this was PG's way of including some kind of sound for Win 7 64 bit users. ..............
I don't think any onboard chip creates MIDI sounds in and of themselves. That would really be terrible--beeps and squeaks. All MIDI not using outboard equipment is created by softsynths (not only VST and DXi, but system softsynths as well, such as the Windows-included Microsoft Synth (also by Roland)).
The term "wavetable" just means using sampled instrument sounds. Most softsynths are "wavetable".
If the Coyote softsynth that PG Music includes is no better than the Microsoft synth that comes with Windows, I have no idea why PG Music would include it? (Have you actually tried it and compared it, and found it to be no better than...., or is that something you heard?) You write that it is included for those who use 64 bit Windows. I haven' t yet used 64 bit Windows myself, but doesn't it come with the Microsoft GS Synth, as do all other versions of Windows? If so, and the Coyote synth included with PG products is no better than the Microsoft Synth, why include it?
Comments from PG Music staff?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I haven' t yet used 64 bit Windows myself, but doesn't it come with the Microsoft GS Synth, as do all other versions of Windows? If so, and the Coyote synth included with PG products is no better than the Microsoft Synth, why include it?
Comments from PG Music staff?
You don't need any comments from the staff, they're already there in the advertising for 2010.5. You're only focusing on the sound quality, there's more to it than that. The Coyote programming turns the standard Windows wavetable into a DXi, that in turn allows it to be used as a plugin for direct rendering and more control. Can't do that with the stock wavetable.
PG was looking for something they could include at no cost for 64 bit users because Roland stopped developing the VSC DXi years ago so it's not compatible with 64 bit systems.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Most of the samplers used today are not wavetables, but are sample based. The following explains:
Wavetable synthesis is fundamentally based on periodic reproduction of an arbitrary, single-cycle waveform.[3] The distinction to other synthesis methods employing single-cycle waveforms is twofold: 1) multiple single-cycle waveforms are used while 2) one or several wave modulators control the change between those multiple waveforms or mixtures thereof. The wave modulation rate is usually significantly smaller than the sampling rate.
The particular sound associated with wavetable synthesis is unique, since only perfect harmonics are produced. Depending on the details of the actual implementation the sound also contains recognizable artefacts, especially aliasing, quantization and phase truncation noise.
Comparison with other digital synthesis techniques
Sample-based synthesis uses multiple-cycle waveforms and intricate algorithms for pitch-shifting.
LA synthesis uses short PCM samples for the attack portion of the sound and looped samples (most of them single-cycle loops) for the sustain/release portion of the sound.
Granular Synthesis uses many overlapping windowed samples. While these samples are very short, they are never periodic.
Confusion with sample-based synthesis
Starting around 1993, with the introduction of Creative Labs' Sound Blaster AWE32 and Gravis' Ultrasound cards, the term "wavetable" started to be applied as a marketing term to any sound card that used PCM samples as the basis of sound creation. However, these sound cards did not employ any form of wavetable synthesis, but rather a high-end sampler and subtractive synthesis system based on technology from the E-mu Emulator family.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thanks for all the responses. I haven't actually tried the newly included player since my impression was that it may be on a par with Cakewalks TTS and no better in terms of quality? I have some great hardware but I like the convenience and time saved with the TTS for rendering.
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Quote:
Thanks for all the responses. I haven't actually tried the newly included player since my impression was that it may be on a par with Cakewalks TTS and no better in terms of quality? I have some great hardware but I like the convenience and time saved with the TTS for rendering.
This is purely subjective of course but the TTS-1 should sound better to you than the wavetable plus it has a complete interface offering a lot of control. How much better is the question. A lot of people here have posted that they really like it and you may as well. The VSC DXi, the TTS-1 and the Hypercanvas seem to be based on the same or certainly similar Roland soundset from the 80's with perhaps some differences in compression. None of them are going to compare to your hardware synths.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The Coyote programming turns the standard Windows wavetable into a DXi, that in turn allows it to be used as a plugin for direct rendering and more control. Can't do that with the stock wavetable.
Bob
Bob, by "standard Windows wavetable" do you mean the "Microsoft GS Synth", created by Roland, which comes with all Windows computers? That is the only MIDI synth that is standard Windows.
Are you saying that Coyote took the Roland-Microsoft sounds and turned them into their own Coyote DXI synth? If so, I sure hope they paid licensing fees to Roland or Microsoft, or they could be sued big time. And clicking "About" in that Coyote synth, would say something about sounds license from Roland.
I'm not sure why they would do that, since they already have their own samples, from their Forte synth. Why would they buy access to the Roland-Microsoft sounds? My guess is that the "Coyote Wavetable" DXI synth (which now comes with BIAB) has either identical sounds as the Coyote Forte DXI Synth, or a more limited version of the same--perhaps less sounds, less tweaking possibilities, etc. I do not think it likely at all that Coyote took the Roland-created Microsoft GS Synth sounds, and turned them into a DXI, to include with BIAB.
And yes, it made perfect sense that I asked the PG Music staff to comment, since they licensed this from Coyote, and would know exactly what it is. I think it would be good if they explained it, rather than readers only seeing guesses such as yours, which don't make much sense.
Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison between the "Coyote Wavetable Synth" and Coyote Forte Synth", and seen if there are any differences, if you notice any real difference in sound, etc.? (It really would not make sense for anyone to purchase Forte, if they are getting the exact same synth for free with BIAB. However, it is possible that Forte includes more sounds, more tweaking possibilities, etc. It would be good if someone who really knows the differences explains them, rather than relying on guesses.)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison between the "Coyote Wavetable Synth" and Coyote Forte Synth", and seen if there are any differences, if you notice any real difference in sound, etc.? (
Like night and day, you get what you pay for (free versus $40).
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The MS GS Synth loads samples into the soundcard chip set. This chipset is very small and can not hold much. The MS GS Synth sample set is about 3 megs. The Coyote WT version for use with 64 bit machines is about the same size and is also loaded into the soundcard chip. The REALCoyote Forte DXi has 171 megs of giga format samples. These do not get loaded into the soundcard chip as they are WAY too large. They get loaded into system memory and are streamed out to the sound card.
3megs 171megs you tell me what sounds better. And they are giga as well.
I do believe I have this correct if knowledge serves me.
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No comparison in the sound quality. Forte wins. I bought it, it is very convenient as a GM synth. I understand you want an 'official word' from PGMusic, but that may be a question better asked of the Coyote team, as to how the license works. If the sounds are already licensed in Windows, making use of them thru DXi may have meant no license was needed, since many programs already get to use them as a windows feature... or maybe it did require some licensing. Either way Coyote may be able to answer better; the feature in PG products may have came with no licensing requirements for them to use this plugin. I hope you see what I mean by that. FWIW Roland samples have been the basic soundset for windows for many years; I'm sure both companies have made a bit of $$ from this partnership.  As to "why include it?" - the MS wavetable, when used inside BiaB and RB (and PT) can be heard when played. It can be recorded as it plays .. but it can not do the 'render to wav' conversion. It doesn't have those capabilities to write the sound to a wav file. Seems like it should but it doesn't. The Forte DXi module allows it to do this. Another thing the MS synth can not do is be used on a track and then have audio processing effects after it; the DXi module from Coyote allows this feature also. Nice for the price.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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BTW FYI
Don't confuse the two by getting the names mixed up. They are 2 different things
1. Coyote Forte DXi =$40
2. Coyote WaveTable Synthesizer=$0
Two different names two different products similar looking interface.Same Company
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Quote:
Two different names two different products similar looking interface.Same Company
..yet a world of difference...
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
Bob, by "standard Windows wavetable" do you mean the "Microsoft GS Synth", created by Roland, which comes with all Windows computers? That is the only MIDI synth that is standard Windows.
Of course, what else are we talking about?
Quote:
Are you saying that Coyote took the Roland-Microsoft sounds and turned them into their own Coyote DXI synth? If so, I sure hope they paid licensing fees to Roland or Microsoft, or they could be sued big time.
Who cares, not our concern is it?
Quote:
I'm not sure why they would do that, since they already have their own samples, from their Forte synth. Why would they buy access to the Roland-Microsoft sounds? My guess is that the "Coyote Wavetable" DXI synth (which now comes with BIAB) has either identical sounds as the Coyote Forte DXI Synth
Wrong guess, reread the responses in this thread. Do you have any idea what "Gigasamples" are?
Quote:
And yes, it made perfect sense that I asked the PG Music staff to comment, since they licensed this from Coyote, and would know exactly what it is. I think it would be good if they explained it, rather than readers only seeing guesses such as yours, which don't make much sense.
Not guesses, facts. You're not understanding the terminology.
Quote:
Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison between the "Coyote Wavetable Synth" and Coyote Forte Synth", and seen if there are any differences, if you notice any real difference in sound, etc.? (It really would not make sense for anyone to purchase Forte, if they are getting the exact same synth for free with BIAB. However, it is possible that Forte includes more sounds, more tweaking possibilities, etc. It would be good if someone who really knows the differences explains them, rather than relying on guesses.)
Of course we've done side by side comparisons what do you think we're talking about here? You're assumptions are completely wrong, as in "IF they are getting the exact same synth for free with Biab..." It's been stated several times above, they are NOT the same. Reread the facts explained in this thread.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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