PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Simple question on MIDI patches

I just downloaded my copy of BiaB 2010.5 and am a bit overwhelmed by options (and the manual). I'm assuming there is a simple answer to my problems, so want to see if anyone on the forum can give me some pointers.

I am trying to get a MIDI file (simple 32 bar AABA song) to play bass and drums accompaniment through the MIDI ports to my Roland piano (RD700GX) through an M-audio Uno USB-MIDI converter. When I do this, one or the other bass, or the drums gets routed as MIDI and plays through the Roland, and the other part gets converted to audio and routed through the computer's Win 7 synthesizer. I turned off Realtracks, and this sometimes seems to (for certain styles) route the MIDI instructions to the Roland, and other times, the drums get sent to the computer.

Additionally, turning off Realtracks reassigns the Midi Patch map for the drums (turns them into pianos, guitars, etc.) I looked through this forum, and found that there was an RD700 patch kit ,PAT file for the RD700, but the manual isn't clear on what you do with these (there seem to be a lot in the BB directory, but this one doesn't show up)

Overall, I'm confused as to what is happening (since using BiaB to drive a MIDI device with GM patches, it seems, should be some sort of default). The BiaB is a bit ambiguous on the assignment of channels and patches ... there seems to be no way to force a particular combination.

I'm sure since I'm new to this, there must be a simple answer. Again, it seems to me that using BiaB to drive a MIDI device with GM patches should be some sort of default, and it should be possible to force this default.

I'd greatly appreciate any help I could get on this problem

Thanks

Chris Westland

It is. All of the style patches are keyed to GM patches. If you choose an all midi style it'll play your RD 700 as it should. assuming it's a GM keyboard. As BIAB can only address on port at a time there is no midi going to the computer sound card. The only thing that would is a Real Track, Real Drums or the audio track. To test this for yourself go to :
opt/prefs/realDrums---uncheck to allow RDs
opt/prefs/realtracks--- uncheck to allow RTs

Now any style you load will be all midi.If this doesn't work go to:

opt/return to factory settings & then click all. This will bring you back to square one.

John has you going to the right places.

As long as Midi is directed to your keyboard (external synth), in the "Midi/Audio Drives Setup", then anything you are hearing via your computer output is audio (i.e., Real Tracks or Real Drums). BIAB is really great at mixing audio and midi.

Oh and be sure you don't have 'Use VST/Dxi" checked in this same setup area since this will send Midi to an internal software synth and then output it via the computer output.

Sounds confusing, but once you get it, it will be a joy.

welcome to the forum from one chicago boy to another.

Thanks so much. This worked (after a bit of fiddling with the channel settings on my Roland)

I can see that 'Factory Reset' is going to be my future friend :-))

Two more questions:

1) all of the MIDI channels seem to route through the "Melody" on the Synth Bar ... it seems like I should be able to assign the drum, bass, etc. channels to the radio buttons for drum, bass, etc. respectively. Is there an easy way to do this?

2) Also, is there a way to load .PAT files? I tried interpreting these as Cakewalk, etc. files, but the menu for that won't recognize a .PAT file. I don't seem to find any menu that loads the .PAT files (except the default pulldown under opt/midi/ menues)

Thanks for all the help

Chris Westland

Chris, you have to put the appropriate .PAT file in the /BB folder.

Then you have to load it in BIAB:

On the fifth row down of the main BIAB screen, a little from the left, see the + sign. It's just to the left of the settings for Volume, Pan, Reverb etc.

Click on the +. Then you will see Open *.PAT on the right. Do that and load your PAT file.

Then, to select each patch, click on an instrument button, then click on the + sign, then select your patch for that instrument from the choices on the left.

The mention of Cakewalk is because BIAB has a utility to convert a Cakewalk (SONAR) .INS file to make a .PAT file for BIAB. But it sounds like you already found the .PAT file and do not need to do this.

Your new .PAT file will be loaded with BIAB each time you load the program, so you only have to open it once as described above.

Also, be sure to save your song with the patches. There are three ways: you can use Alt+F2, or File, Save Song with Patches and Harmony, or you can do what I do: add the "Save+" button to the toolbar and use that each time.

Oh - and Welcome to the forum!

Exactly. I've got it. Thanks Matt, for the quick response.

So there must be something I don't understand about the radio buttons. When I assign a Drum Kit with the + button, shouldn't it be associated with the 'Drum' radio button? It seems that all of my patch assignments are just ending up in 'Melody' (I'm exploring this by muting each of the radio buttons)

Chris

When you load a MIDI file into BIAB, it puts all the channels from that MIDI file into the Melody track. The other tracks (bass, drums, piano, etc) play based on the style selected, not on what's in the MIDI file. Since you loaded a MIDI file, generally what happens is that the current/default style gets muted, so you don't hear that, just the MIDI file. If there is an "X" next to the style name, that shows it is muted.

Using the sequencer feature of BIAB (green SEQ button), you can edit what happens on the melody track. You can include/exclude specific parts/channels, move things around, rechannel, etc.

What I often do is load the MIDI file, single out the melody track, move one of the other tracks (perhaps one that defines the song by the riffs played) to the soloist track, then mute everything else. I then find an appropriate style for the other tracks and make the song my own. It won't sound like the original, but that's what I want to do.

Play with it some, view the video tutorials, hit the butttons, etc. And then ask more questions on the forum. We're here to help, and like you, we were new to it at one time also.

Thank you John. This make sense, and is all very useful -- it gives me a basis for editing my songs. Chris

Hi Chris and welcome to the forum. Since you're talking about using midi files, you should also learn Real Band. A lot of people overlook it because they think Biab is the real deal and RB is just some sort of a throw in freebie. Not so. RB is a hybrid of Biab and Power Tracks. It gives you 48 tracks to work with, they are all displayed on your screen, you have 32 midi output ports, much more flexible routing and uses of plugins, much better midi/audio editing functions and more. The best thing for me when working with midi files is the ability to use different synths for each track if I want, add as many RT/RD's as I want on a track by track basis and finally create Biab midi style tracks also on a track by track basis. The key here is RB doesn't limit you to one style for your whole song. You can use a different style for all 48 tracks if you really went overboard with it. You could for example, create 3 or 4 different rhythm guitar parts using different styles on different tracks and then mix and match them to create one good guitar track.
I could go on and on but the short version is both programs complement each other. Biab does things RB doesn't do but RB does a whole lot Biab can't do especially when working with midi files.

Bob

Thank you for the tip on Real Band, Bob. I feel like a bit of a wimp for not being able to put all this together from the manual, but BiaB has gotten very extensive over the 20 or so years of its development, with a lot of the features being integrated. Even if you get through the manual, putting it together to achieve a particular objective requires some playing around.

Real Band does look like something I should explore, and perhaps more relevant to what I am trying to do with my RD700GX right now. I notice that my MIDI tracks on RB automatically assign themselves to the instruments, rather than going through the melody.

Chris

I'm finding the manual is somewhat useful (though it would be much more helpful if Contents/Search/Index were hotlinked into the text), but ambiguous on the general nature of how the sound from a MIDI file gets generated and controlled.

It seems to me that (ignoring Real XXX stuff, which I still don't understand) the use of BiB as a flexible sequencer for my Roland RD700 should entail assigning a sequence of 6 tables:

Roland Patches – Roland Channels – BiB Channels – BiB Patch / Drum kit – BiB Seq Track – MIDI File Channel

Real Band seems to substantially increase the complexity of aligning these tables, I think (though maybe I am missing something and it really is simpler than BiB).

I wonder if anyone could direct me to any documents or discussions or a section of either the RB or BiB manuals that deals holistically with these assignments? The programs (both RB and BiB) seem unstable in their patch assignments – I find that there are impromptu reassignments of patches that seem to occur spontaneously (though I'm sure I must be initiating these, I can't figure out how).

Also, I will load .DK files, but not be able to find any of the patches (or the files). In general it seems to be difficult to track down what functions these file types serve and how to track down what is in them.

Is there a table anywhere in the documentation that puts this all in one spot?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Chris Westland

I think you are one of the members who will enjoy RB. It is not as robust & easy at instant creation as BiaB is, but if you want more control, RB does that very well.
Sorry, I was replying to your earlier post thanking Jazzmammal.

I think that a good suggestion might be to go and buy a book on midi. Once you understand Midi it opens up the whole world for you.

Midi is basically just a string of information, it has no sound, and makes no music by itself.
Midi consist of infomation like what note to play, what velocity to play that note, when to play it and when to stop. There are many other options but that is what it does. Now to hear music you need to send that infromation to a sample player or Synthesizer. Which has either a sample sound patch or a synthesized sound set.

Midi can be setup in several formats, GM GS, XG, these are examples of lists of sound patches or instrument patches. All of these have basically the same instrument patches, but might have a few variables.

Different synthesizers will use what is called a patch map, these are a detailed routing instructions so that the midi data will find the correct patch or sound sample for that specific synth. For instance a Roland Patch map may direct the data to a different number than say a Korg map will. What could happen if you have a roalnd synth, and are using a Standard GM patch map you might not hear a Grand piano, but a Rhodes instead.

Channels are paths that the midi data takes from one device to another. For instance you have 3 midi tracks inside Real Band, and you want to send the data in those tracks to a Roland keyboard to play all three instrument sounds. So that they play properly you need to send each separate track on a separate Midi channel, maybe Piano on channel 1, Bass on Channel 2, Strings on Channel 3. Or what ever, as long as they are not sending on the same channel.

So if you are using a Roland synth to create the sound, you need to setup either BiaB or RB so that it sends midi data out on assigned channels, using a roland patch map, or a Standard GM map if your synth has that capability.

DK files are drum patterns. You have to load these thru the program. In RB it is 'Edit-fill track with drum pattern' and then you see a list of the available patterns. These are drum patterns of a few bars in nature and will be copied/pasted repeatedly to fill the track. You can easily make your own DK files, by the way.

If you are in BiaB then you can only have one synth, so which synth are you listening through? The soundcard, DXi or the Roland?

In RB you can use all three at the same time, but in BiaB it is only one MIDI port at a time. It could be that you are using a different synth than expected, or BiaB messages meant for one synth are making their way to another. For instance, sending a message meant for the software GM synth that gets received by the Roland synth (when not in GM mode) would have 'unexpected results.'
So let us know exactly how you are set up for MIDI presently and what you would like to be able to do. It will easier to explain than for us to try to figure out your 6 table theory and then adjust. I didn't understand that part of your question at all.

Quote:

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The problem Chris is you don't understand midi at all

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:-)

Yup ... guilty as charged. I'm muddling through in learning what MIDI is about, but having a tough time tracking down all of the different things that are going on. This board has been a great help (and I think it's a great confidence builder) but I think I'm going to have to spend some serious time getting a basic setup to work as I'd like.

I'm a bit conflicted on whether BiB or RB is the better way to start. RB looks more straightforward. I know it doesn't help me to shift back and forth between one and the other.

I'll report back when I know what I'm talking about

Chris

We all have been exactly where you are now. You'll be zipping along in no time.

Don't be afraid to ask questions whenever you feel the need.

Basic explanation of MIDI-
It's like a TV; different things are on different channels to keep them separate.

GM mode simply sets a guideline for what channels and messages are standard. The 'standard' channel for drums is 10.
The rest of the other 15 channels can be used for whatever sound you want. But if you tell channel one that it is a piano, and then go to a different 'track' and try to use channel one again for a different sound, you will get problems. When the song sends a message to make channel 1 a piano, and then another message comes along saying channel 1 is bass .. the last message wins.

Since there are only 128 patch numbers and some synths have thousands of sounds, we have 'banks', which are groups of 128 or less sounds in addition to the standard GM sounds. Every synth will have different bank numbers for their extra sounds, since this is not part of the GM specifications. Those will be listed in the synths manual.

As long as you keep the idea of MIDI channels and the tracks in the program being two different things, it helps. Any MIDI channel can be used on any of the 48 tracks in RB. They are completely different things.
Then remember each sound needs its own MIDI channel so it does not interfere with the other sounds.

Most beginners with patch change problems have an error on the MIDI channel being used, or they have a second change in the song they forgot about. To see if that is the case, use the Event List (the 'E' icon in RB) to easily look at every MIDI event on a track. If the change keeps happening at bar 13, look at bar 13 and see why. Remember though; the patch change could be on any 'track'... since the track and the MIDI channel are two separate things. It is easy to accidently put a patch change for channel 1 on a track that was meant for channel 4...

o a little reading at these sites:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_get_started_with_midi.html


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/aug95/midibasics1.html

Actually, these are not the specific stumbling blocks I am encountering. Here is where I'm coming from:

I have a Roland with 16 MIDI in Channels, of which I am using 2=bass, 3=piano, and 10=drums. So for sound generation, I have at my disposal whatever tones are on the RD700GX (and these patches are listed at the back of their manual)

I have from the MIDI file (I believe, and here is where I am unclear) basically note/volume/etc. sequences assigned to various MIDI channels; the files I am using have MIDI ch. 2=bass, 3=piano, and 10=drums ... so these align with the Roland MIDI tables

But patches have not been mentioned, and this is where I get confused. I'm presuming that the RD700 .PAT file that downloads from the PGMusic site has the table for the various RD700 patches. I can't find any drum kits, and I know that there are at least four drum kits on the RD700 that I can use. So I looked for a .DK file to see if these might have the patch information needed.

So on one side I have the Roland tables (MIDI ch + patches)

On the other side I have the MIDI sequence file and BiB or RB augmented by the .PAT and .DK files that describe the patches inside the Roland. So these should basically serve up the MIDI sequence with the right patches to the Roland. I can't assign the patches inside the Roland, I need to do this in the software (maybe RB is best for this)

So my question would concern how one takes the basic sequence information, and adds the patches and drum kit selections that would apply to the Roland (since I seem to need to make these selections inside BiB or RB).

I have had luck in assigning the .PAT patches ... but they don't always stick (this may be Sysex information as you say in the MIDI stream). But I can't find the Roland drum kits on the menus that come up for patch selection.

Perhaps there is a sections of the manual that I should be reading through, but I didn't see this directly addressed anywhere in the manual

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated

Thank

Chris

Chris, I think you are making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be.

First off Most of us do not use the terms midi tables. The basic componants of midi are rather simple, but still hard to wrap the head around. The most confusing being tracks verses Channels. But setting that asside as you seem to know what those are here goes a feeble attempt to unravel it a bit.

First off, Let's start with the program, and i will use Real Band as the example as I know it better than BiaB.

Let's say you have three tracks in RB, track one is Bass, track 2 is Piano, and track 3 is drums.

Next you assign track 1 to send out on midi channel 2, and track 2 to send on channel 3, and track 3 to send on channel 10. Also all three are using midi port 1 which is connected to the roland keyboard with a USB cable.

Then in the individual tracks assign them to a instrument sound. This is done by using a patch list if RB is setup to send on GM the patch list should already be in RB, just use the patch drop down and assign it the patch you want, say Finger bass for track 1 and grand piano for track 2, and accoustic set or whatever the name is for track 3.

Let's say the Roland is set to use it's basic GM bank. So you setup the Roland to receive onmi channels, or all the channels and it should read the incoming data and automatically play those patches.

If you want different sounds than those in the GM set of 127 sound you have to tell it what bank to send and then set the Roland to receive that bank. This is where you use a different patch map, so that both parties, the Program and the synth are on the same page and can read each other.

Hope that helps.