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Through the years of PT and now RB, unless you had another software for working with audio, the balancing of backing tracks and vocals has been done by manually reducing competing volumes and maybe frequency carving, to bring the vocals to the foreground. It would be nice to have the ability to work in PT and RB with volume envelopes and audio tracks. (I know wish list  ) But what about software side-chaining via a VST plugin - are there any that work? I'm really a novice when it comes to "ducking". I have a nanocompressor that has a sidechain jack but I've never used it. But let's set it aside for now and concentrate on the software plugin. Is anyone out there aware of this particular software plugin, and how effective it is? How best to use it? Thanks and looking forward to your replies. Ian
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I have played a bit with side chaining and "ducking" when working with Multitrackstudios, many of the plugins there have sidechaining. It is a cool feature for a lot of reasons. I think this is a good area for PG to do some development on with their plugins. I did a search at KVR and there are a number of plugins that have side chain ability take a wander thru http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php?mode=results&st=f&q=side+chaining
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Interesting question and answer. Thanks, guys. I agree, this would be a good RealBand feature for the wish list. [I could be wrong, but I would hope someone doing ducking (say, for making commercials) would at least be using a sequencer and not BIAB to do the final editing like this.]
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Thanks for the link Rob - I spent yesterday web-crawling - gets ya down after awhile - I'll definitely check this out.
Ian
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Hi Matt
Definitely need something like this in RB and PT for audio - which way to go for PG though - ducking or audio envelopes.
Which we would be the easier to implement. I think it should definitely be part of the overall package for final mixing.
Still hoping to find some more experience out there using either of these features as VSTs.
Ian
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First question is whether or not you want to do ducking with stereo tracks being ducked. If so, you will have to likely implement this in a buss setup in PT/RB, though I'm not sure how it will work since PT and RB aren't really modular hosts - meaning that the signal chains are modeled after what is possible in a somewhat simple mixing board, without allowing a 'patch cord' kind of connection between tracks and so on.
In order to get it to work, you have to figure out how to route both the signal you want to compress or duck, and the signal that you will use as a control. Sometimes the controlling signal is called the 'key'. In your nano compressor, it's the side-chain input.
You need the ability to identify which signals are which in the plugin; according to how PT or RB refer to them.
Probably the most easy to understand setup for this that you've all heard, is to hear bumper music in a radio or television program get reduced in volume as an announcer's voice comes into play. The music is getting ducked while the announcer talks, then slowly (hopefully) comes back up after the announcer is done speaking.
With modular host DAW software, it's pretty easy to do this - you just connect the signals with patch cords to where they belong on the plugins, and then you can begin playing with the settings.
For ducking vocals for radio type use, you want a somewhat slow attack and release on the compression and volume reduction, slower for the release than the attack. If you make either of these too short, then an unnatural transition happens.
The other probably most common use of sidechaining that you DON'T realize you are hearing is when the kick drum sound is used to duck a bass line. The kick is the key signal, and the bass line is what gets ducked. This keeps those low frequencies present in both signals from destructive interference. In this case, the attack and release times are typically much faster. While the kick is present, the volume of the bass will be quickly turned down. This allows the combined effect of both to provide the punch without the phase competition between lows in both signals. Done well, you don't notice the effect except for the clarity it provides in a song's bottom end.
The last use of sidechain that you've heard if you listen to electronic and trance music is that bog-standard pumping supersawtooth sound. There's about 4 or 5 standard elements in trance music; this is one of them. The others are kicks on the 1/4 notes, a pretty narrow BPM range, stutter effects, snare rolls that are programmed in progression from 1/8th to 1/16th to 32nd to 64th notes over a measure, etc. In this case the effect is absolutely intentional that you hear the volume swelling up and down of the supersaw synth sound, almost as if someone is playing the synth with repetitive on the 'ands' of the beats. Not the case usually. The keying is happening with the kick plugged into the sidechain, and the synth is getting compressed/controlled in a severe manner.
Ask yourself if any of these are what you want to accomplish. Chances are 'no' in a typical song for vocals. A virtual hand on the volume fader is likely to yield better results, which my understanding is possible after-the-fact with volume envelope editing in PT/RB.
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You can draw envelopes in the pianoroll window. Set the controller you are drawing to CC7 volume.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Scott
Thanks for taking the time to do that - the use I intended was pretty simple -
stereo bg tracks to a vocal. This would require a slow attack and release of maybe 3 dB or so I would imagine.
Just enough ducking to enhance vocal clarity as a substitute for the lack of fine frequency carving acuity I no longer have. I was not aware of the Bass/Kick duck - interesting.
Bob - I was aware that the piano roll window had envelopes for MIDI although I've never used the feature but I didn't think it could be applied to audio/realtracks too.
Ian
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yes it can 
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I like duck a l'orange. The rest of this is over my head, unless the proverbial duck is a black duck, (watch out for mergansers they want you to eat that sardine tasting duck), and you pop off the 12 gauge with the 4 as it passes over the canoe. The the 2 shot if needed and there's more than one. Hang on while you lab jumps in the water, you have to compensate so that canoe don' fell hover hin dat col' fall wadder hey?
Ok so now do I need to even bother with learning this stuff.
Think think think...
nope.
Unless Ian tells me it helps with the new thing where I get drum sticks counting in in the kitchen, and upstairs and well all over, but it's just the latest new feature of being deaf. Nice. I looked for what the heck it was for 3 days before calling the audiologist. Great. So for me it's 'normal'.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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You're probably right John, it's probably no weather for ducks . . .or ducking (unless it's questions from the wife, eh?) Just exploring the benefits or not of side-chaining . . . or Lon Chaney - no need for it for the work you do methinks. Only the wives would like such a gizmo to reduce the volume of sportscasts so we the males can hear when they ask us questions. Now there's a moneymaker!  So you got the Bluetooth gadget working in the house, John? Sort of wireless radio direct input through the the aids? Ian
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Now I am surprised Bob. I have been using the gain change, highlight portions of the wave and then hard writing then changes.
Would of course be better if it could be done more in realtime. I suppose recording the fader moves on the mixer is another " workaround" in place of real envelopes when it comes to audio tracks.
I'll have a deeper look tomorrow.
Ian
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To be honest, it can't add gain.
A volume envelope is what it is, and all they can do is 'reduce'from the top level. It can't make things louder, but it will allow drawing in relative curves.
So you may still need the gain change to make the max volume 'loud enough', then the volume envelopes adjust it from there.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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There are far more workarounds in Rb than we sometimes think, and Mr. Bob here is a guru of them. I really have to dig in a bit and learn some of the finer points.
For true real ducking programs like Multitrackstudios, Reaper, Sonar have more options. If you have not read up on them take a look at their websites and do the research. In Reaper i watched an old video of Reaper 1, and it details the process, at MTS there is a piece in the manual about ducking very interesting.
What i bet is that with a third party compressor, and a little work we might find a workable solution in RB.
The purpose of mentioning the above DAW programs is not to promote them, but to give an idea what we need in RB to make it a little better.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Quote:
You can draw envelopes in the pianoroll window. Set the controller you are drawing to CC7 volume.
I didn't know that.. but I just tried it and it works!
Likewise Pan and Aux sends show up un the CC window for audio tracks !
Thanks Bob!
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I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Journeyman
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Quote:
But what about software side-chaining via a VST plugin - are there any that work?
I'm really a novice when it comes to "ducking".
If you'd like RB to handle it natively, you can only let them know and hope and wait.
If you're looking for a solution now, there might be some choices.
SONAR has some plug ins which do side-chaining. I don't know if those plugs are compatible with
RB.
There is a third party plugs:
DX windows $39 http://www.db-audioware.com/db-d-dynamics-processor.html
VST windows $85 http://www.db-audioware.com/sidechain-compressor.html
There may be others, even free.
First determine which formats RB accepts for plugins. Sometimes, apps won't support side-chain
even if they partially support the plugin format.
good luck
Finally, I have found a cool signature with sufficiently dry humor.
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While the automation in Rb and PT is nice, it is still rudimentary when compared to node base automation like in sonar, multitrackstudio, or reaper. the ability to click and add nodes then drag them up or down is great, simple and powerful. You can do it in Rb, but the process is clunky.
In Multitrackstudios, you open an automation window and add it like a effect in the effects bin of the track click and add nodes where you want them. and waalaa. You can actually right click any button or slider and automate it. In Reaper you add automation tracks under the audio or midi tracks, and add nodes or draw in automation, similar in Sonar, but you add them overlayed on the actual tracks, i prefer that at times, and the MTS way other times.
I can't wait till PG does something like this to enhance the already in place system. so many tools to use.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Quote:
While the automation in Rb and PT is nice, it is still rudimentary when compared to node base automation like in sonar, multitrackstudio, or reaper
...or nearly any other DAW software on the market. Been that way for several years now. Even low priced offerings.
Back to the Side-Chain thing - until PG products can see 'across' tracks to other audio streams, ducking/side-chaining will not be possible.
It REALLY feels like PG needs a major audio engine re-think/re-do. So many new users are posting about how to automate controls of effects and instruments, how to integrate tempo-tracking VST/VSTi, handling of ASIO, etc.
Note: This does not mean sound quality is different between PG products and others. My comment about the audio engine has nothing to do with handling of digitized audio, 2 channels at a time. However, it is about how one uses one audio signal to do something with another audio signal - which is what is necessary with side-chaining.
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