PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Disapponted with the new MIDI features? So am I ... but ... this is not a complaint post ... instead it is supportive

As many of you know, I'm a MIDI person. I have no use for the Real Tracks and feel that I can make a much better song by exporting MIDI tracks to a good MIDI sequencer, tweaking the music in that sequencer a little bit and playing it with good sounding MIDI modules. I think that using this method, I can take the very good output from BiaB and turn it into something truly excellent.

Like many other people, I've made my MIDI suggestions in the wishlist LINK. Unfortunately, all of my wishes haven't been granted yet. But again, I'm not complaining.

Through the years since I was introduced to BiaB on the Atari and later Motorola Macs and DOS PCs (we called them IBM compatibles back then), many features have been introduced that I have absolutely no use for; notation (I have encore), the visual drum window, melodist, soloist, Real Band (I find MTPro an easier sequencer for me to use YMMV), Real Tracks and others.

I just figure the features that I don't use are for somebody else. Like the songs in a fake book. I buy the book for the songs I want to play, and I figure the songs I don't want to play are just extra. Like the Internet itself, I visit the sites that interest me, and the other sites are for other people. I have no problem with PG adding features for other people.

I have also seen the core BiaB program grow through the years. When I started there were only 3 instruments, (piano, bass and drums) with the 'built in' 24 styles, no endings at all, no user styles, very limited chord selection choices, and absolutely no other features at all (no harmonies, melodist, soloist, etc.). It was what it was originally intended to be, a rough, practice tool.

Through the years I have also made quite a few suggestions, some of them have been implemented, some of them have not. I don't know the reason behind this because I'm on the outside looking in.

I've also made some innovations on my own that PG Music has later included in the core program like shots, multi-styles, EXPANDED, REDUCED, etc. I saw the demand, implemented them on my own, PG saw that it was a good idea, adopted them, and everybody benefits.

I am hoping that after the initial love affair with new Real Tracks cools down, PG will be adopting more of the requested innovations in the MIDI part of the core program itself. I don't know which ones can be implemented, which ones PG feels are good suggestions, and which ones they will adopt. Again, on the outside looking in.

Like everyone else, I'm like a hungry little bird peeping away to PG, "Feed me! Feed me!". I want my suggestions implemented. But PG has many customers, each peeping away and wanting their own developments. I would assume that the loop people are peeping for more loops and PG is responding.

So we MIDI fans need to peep too. Make your suggestions, affirm the suggestions that others have made and you agree with. Do it on the PG Music forum, post them on the wish list, and let PG know what we want. If we peep louder than the others, perhaps we will be fed.

Even though I haven't gotten all that I wanted out of BiaB, I still feel it is the best auto-accompaniment program out there. What Peter Gannon and crew have done is truly remarkable. They started out ahead of the pack with BiaB/DOS, long before there was anyone else. They have grown through the years as computer technology has grown. I am a happy BiaB user, and hope to be even happier in the future.

I have nothing but admiration for what PG Music has done. But I will continue to put in my requests in the hopes that some of my wishes come true. Hopefully I will make my requests in a friendly, gentlemanly manner and although I will be disappointed if they all don't come true, I will be understanding that I don't know enough about the inner workings and the demands of other customers to know why my requests aren't the most important in the world to PG Music.

Thanks Peter Gannon for a great product, thanks for the improvements you have made that I have enjoyed, thanks for the features that make other people happy, and I hope your product will continue to evolve in the future and that some of my wishes will come true.

Sincerely,
Bob Norton

Notes, you get award for longest post name!

I know we've had this conversation before. But for my purposes, since the advent of Real Tracks, there is no comparison. I am a jazz pianist and EWI 4000s player. My limited use of BIAB consists of RT bass, RT drums and B3. For my ears, doing an a/b comparison, the feel of the RTs is far superior to midi. I purchased a couple of your midi styles a few years ago before Real Tracks, but once Real Tracks came out midi just didn't cut it for me. This pertains to me only, the same way you feel about midi. Maybe if I were a pop player or in a cover band I would feel different. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone. Later, Ray

Notes, very well stated!

By the amount of midi requests that have appeared in Peter’s midi request thread there are lots more midi users of BiaB than I had imagined. I thought I was one of the last of a dying breed but it appears that I’m not alone. Midi is alive and well in many other software companies such as NI, all hardware MFG, Roland, Korg, Akai etc. I hope Peter can incorporate many of the requests that have been listed.

You're right, Mario. There is life in the old standard yet.

Hi ,
I luv the Real Tracks, they sound fantastic.
With midi tracks though, you can have exactly the accompniament you want.
So yeh for midi.

To sound good with midi, you have to be a good composer, take time with editing staff notes, have excellent soundfont libraries (which can be pretty pricey) -- all in all, the skill level and tools required to get midi to sound excellent is pretty high. With realtracks pretty much anyone can sound good! Of course, songwriting is still the key ingredient in having good songs -- but for the masses, realtracks win out over midi (in my opinion).

If I was trying to compose for music libraries, I would have to become a midi expert, but I am not. Midi is great, but I think there is more money to made for PGM with the real tracks stuff.

Just projecting here, but I think it's significant that many items on the "unfulfilled wish list" actually HAVE been added to Real band. (Higher resolution, multiple midi ports to name 2)

I noticed today for the first time that RB can now generate a whole song from the styles as easily as BIAB can.

It will be interesting to see if RB gets an 8 chord cell anytime soon.

Or a stylemaker for high resolution styles, as requested by Notes.

Hmmmm

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Well, I like MIDI and I like RealTracks. I don't see them as mutually exclusive, but as complementary. I could never notate the riffs that a number of the RealTracks do; but likewise, I still need note control on other tracks - so I need MIDI for that.

RealDrums are great, and I use them, but there are several songs where I used BIAB generated MIDI drums, because I couldn't find a RealDrum that worked better with the song. So, I need MIDI there, too.

So, as Mac always says, I see both as nothing more that more and better tools in my music making arsenal.

I thank Peter for being forward looking enough to provide both.

I am curious Which specific midi implementation would you like to see Mr Norton? More then one driver in/out has been one of mine for a while.

PG & Team have fulfilled one of the best functions in a DAW: Instrument sounds/patches. People save money by not having to buy expensive midi sound modules in order to produce life-like backing tracks with Biab now. I would guess that was the #1 complaint about Biab, for those who thought Biab produced the actual instrument sounds in of itself.

I had to sell my Tyros a few months back. I haven't lost any joy with Biab, due to the advent of the Real Tracks.

I am also a midiot and will purchase another sound source to use with the Biab midi styles, they are too good to ignore. Having the ability now to assign separate VSTi's to any midi track in Biab is like having multiple midi in/out drivers.

It is amazing what the major midi manufacture's are coming up with these days for their sounds/patches. Most have now implemented their patches to sound like real instruments as well. Same with the VST market.

Trax

The problem is that BIAB's midi resolution and 2 bar pattern limitation isn't up to capturing the performing dynamics and subtleties of phrasing you can achieve with Real Tracks.

For this reason and want of a more expensive midi module with larger samples, Real Tracks will always sound better by default to many people.

But this isn't some immutable truth; it's just the way PG have chosen to develop BIAB.

If midi patterns of 4 or 8 bar length were achievable as standard without the need to use bar masks then this would allow for more natural sounding comping patterns to emerge in midi without the clunkiness, lack of continuity and random quality you get with a two bar limit.

I guess it's the question of whether BIAB wants to become a true arrangers platform as opposed to mainly a performer's instant practice tool. Most people are happy with the ability to generate an instant sketch or 'arrangement' of sorts, even if the dynamics and variation of a real band are often missing. Shots and holds and pushes help but are not the whole answer.
Midi styles need to be more internally varied mirroring real practice in a performing situation. User defined chord voicings should be achievable and the oft-asked for ability to have chords entered on an eighth note time base .

These are the kinds of arranger-friendly possibilities BIAB has shied away from in the past five or six years since real tracks/real drums first became available. Questions of sound aside, audio loops are a done deal editing-wise and they can take away as much in creative flexibility just as they add in authenticity.


Regards


Alan

Hi,
true the real tracks sound better than midi tracks, but there's a number of styles that aren't covered by real tracks and may not be worth pg's while doing.
There's no clasical, there's no soundtrack styles just to name a couple genre's.

Ok, probably most users don't delve into midi style creation or style editing, but the functions do exist.
Editing a style to make it a bit more suitable, shouldn't be all that difficult. I've edited a few.

Quote:

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To sound good with midi, you have to be a good composer, take time with editing staff notes, have excellent soundfont libraries (which can be pretty pricey) -- all in all, the skill level and tools required to get midi to sound excellent is pretty high. With realtracks pretty much anyone can sound good! Of course, songwriting is still the key ingredient in having good songs -- but for the masses, realtracks win out over midi (in my opinion).

If I was trying to compose for music libraries, I would have to become a midi expert, but I am not. Midi is great, but I think there is more money to made for PGM with the real tracks stuff.

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Well Alan some interesting points. I dont use the MIDI side of BIABand I dont use RealBand.
The addition of VST plugins has opened up a new world here

Given good plugins a lot can be done, but your point about mirroring the slight ideosynchacies of a performance is also important. If you play eight notes in a row its natural to play the first and fifth notes louder and the third and seventh also to a lesser degree (assuming its nto reggae of 3/4).
Another problem is that MIDI instruments function with note off. Some real instruments function this way, and its also possible to let a note decay, but the passage from one note to the next on various acoustic instruments is by no means clear cut. Some instruments have a muted characteristic transition at least in legato playing - I am thinking of valve instruments, some insturments like guitar have some notes that often continue (the open strings) and others that rarely do - the fingering of guitars can also vary from note to note, from ghost notes to more staccato attacks, strums sound some notes more than others, and this all adds to the character of the sound.
Each instrument has its unique characteristics in this repsect and emulating them makes for a more authentic performamce. To do this one must know how the instrument operates and also how to achieve this using MIDI and the actual sample set you have

Hi All,
I don't want to be rude or disrepsectful or detract from the superb work that Notes Norton have done with band in the box midi styles and fake books and improvements. But I do think Notes Norton are reliant on midi for sales of the packages they offer for sale and as I would too, tend to be a little biast towards wanting more developement and promoting of midi, so I do see the point.

I suspect that PG can't do everything at once and spent a lot of developement time on new features for the latest upgrades to keep the company running. I'm sure it will all fall in to place in time and MIDI & Realtracks will be PERFECT.

I recently bought some NN Fake Book biab songs disks and although very good I found afterwards I really needed the Style disks to go with them to do them justice which I can't afford at the moment so was a little dissapointed as it will turn out to much more expensive than I first thought.

I certainly think any improvements to MIDI will be greatly received by all that use it including myself. I love the quality of the Realtracks and drums but I also love the versatility of midi and providing you have a good sound bank/keyboard or whatever the midi can be just as good.

I tend to mix and match and use both often depending on the type of project I am working on. There is room for BOTH realtracks and MIDI. I don't think you can favour one over the other, it's down to what people find the best tool for the job they are working on. I would think though that many new to biab these days would possibally not be into midi or know much about it with the changing times and equipment so are being introduced and using only realtracks.

It's brilliant that we now have the choice thanks to PG and the team's insights and hard work that biab has come so far since those old Dos days.
Can't get enough.
Regards. Jeff

generally, for composing quickly, I prefer MIDI too. The realtracks sound great but they are too slow to work with, there's no easy way to discern where is whatever you are looking for, and cannot be edited easily if they have something in them that you don't like, .e.g. too many passing notes, etc

The problem with MIDI...the sounds suck so bad. But for writing music without taking 1 day it's still the best way to go.

If you are wanting band dynamics, you'll definitely need a midi sequencer for post edits. Voila: RealBand. I usually use Bass, Drums and String parts from Biab midi styles and "build" from there recording the other parts. It can be done though. I have heard midi songs for sale that have been made with Biab. I can't remember if it was Midi Hits or not, but I immediately recognized the Biab styles used to make the songs with. If you spend some time with Biab, you will recognize parts in peoples songs.

Trax

I'm wondering if one reason that real tracks seem to be the currently more popular "tool" is because of the expense of buying a hardware midi synth. I realize that there are expensive software synths also, but there are many decent free and/or good inexpensive ones such as Coyote Forte. I like to work with notation and midi just seems easier for me as an amateur. I've purchased a number of Note's FB disks and they have saved me a lot of time. However, I have also downloaded some freebie midi files and have edited some arrangements to suit our needs. I could not have ended up with the same results with an audio file. I'm thinking that PG Music provides products that appeal to customer popularity and provide the best sales volume. That's what being in business is all about.

I have been curious as to how an all-midi PG Music BIAB/RB package might sell, but I'm not sure I'll ever see that. While I have no quality complaints relating to Notes' style disks, I would like to see a discount package deal for Norton's styles including on a particular fake books disk. I would be willing to pay for such a package if the price is reasonable. Of course "reasonable" is a relative term. I have actually ignored choosing certain fb tunes because the style used for it was not readily available. Just sayin..

Stan

Expense is not a consideration for me.

Don't drop that dime.

I used midi since day 1, and am into RealTracks now. I have a few times I want midi, but not often.

There's a program, get with it!

Yes Bob, your point is made that when you average the cost of a synth over it's life, the annual cost is not much. The problem for some of us is that we don't have the big bucks to invest in an expensive synth to start with.

Also a good point about hard drive crashes. That's why we use Carbonite even though I have a hard drive that I could use for backup. Carbonite is transparent so I don't even have to think about backing up.

Stan