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I posted a little while back about getting a new soundcard since I didn't like the MIDI voices on mine. A chorus of replies suggested that soundcard sounds may not be the right solution any more.
What do you guys suggest? I guess I'm looking for that sweet spot trading off price and performance. I used to be happy with Roland VSC, and it came free with BIAB, but I gather that's no longer a solution? Or not a good solution? (Why not?)
I'll shut up and listen now!
Saxmaam
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Saxmaam,
Roland VSC/DXi will still work provided your computer has a 32-bit operating system installed. If you are running 64-bit operating system, it will not function, though.
The latest BIAB installations come with Coyote Wavetable which is a very basic software synth. From reading these forums, some people don't mind the Coyote Wavetable while others prefer to get the Cakewalk TTS1 (which I seem to recall comes with Cakewalk Music Creator) or Coyote Forte soft synth. Both of these are sold by PG Music for around $40.
It will be interesting to read what others say.
All the best,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Apprentice
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I route everything through my Yamaha keyboard. Even the most inexpensive Yamaha, Roland or Casio keyboard is going to have a better sounding bank than any soundcard midi. Most of the newer keys have a USB out so there is no complicated cable set up, just plug and play
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Journeyman
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like others said, Yamaha keyboards have very good MIDI sounds, and the top of the range ones sound great, I have a Tyros 2. Obviously, the cost of either defeats the purpose....the only one good choice I can think of, is a Ketron SD2 module, which is still expensive. PG Music should outsource a great sounding midi module, that Roland VSC makes me go yuck, and the Forte modules are just a bit better.
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Back in the day soundcards had built in Midi. No more.
You need a midi module or stick with 32 bit.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Coyote Forte soft synth. ....for around $40.
While I also have moved to a large percentage of RT's, this GM soft synth for BIAB always sounded good to me 
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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You may want to explore soundfonts - especially now that BIAB can handle multiple synths. A good place to start is HERE. There are plenty of discussions on the forum about soundfonts. And be sure to check out Coyote Forte. R
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Agreement with Dan and Rachael. Coyote Forte does the job, especially if you add some effects onto it, and especially especially if you are also using RealTracks. You also might want to check some of the free synths and samplers online that handle General MIDI, e.g., Sampletank and Proteus VX.
Best, Tom SmithWin10/64 • i7-8700K • 24 GB RAM BIAB 2025 • Reaper 7 • Izotope MPS AKG C1000S • IK iRig I/O Pro
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So the choices are ...
coyote Forte/cakewalk tts1 at ~ $40
Ketron SD2 at $400
soundfonts/synths/samplers from online (cost = time + possibly free)
Since I don't want to become a synthesized sound hobbiest, I guess I'll start with the Coyote Forte demo and see how that works for me.
thanks for the help,
Saxmaam
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And to avoid confusion, the Coyote WT (that gets installed with BIAB/RB) is not the same thing as the Coyote Forte (which you need to install separately). As I remember correctly, it will work with all features for 30 days before you have to register it ($40), so you can evaluate it for free.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Personally, I prefer external solutions. The Ketron SD2 has a great reputation but I've not heard it.
I have a number of synthesizer modules and keyboards that I've collected through the years including, Yamaha TX81z, Roland MT-32, Roland SC-55, Korg DDD5, Korg DS8, Korg i3, Edirol SD90, Yamaha VL70m and a couple of hardware samplers.
The nice thing about hardware synth modules, is that as long as you can put MIDI out of yoru computer, the modules will never become orphaned by a new operating system, you can mix and match sounds from them taking the best from each (zero latency for all practical purposes), they don't tax your computer's CPU, and never seem to break down or crash.
The TX81z, DS8, and MT32 that I purchased back in the 80s have some very dated sounds in them, but they still have some excellent voices that I haven't found a replacement for.
All in all if I had to use only one in my personal array, I'd choose the SD-90 as it is the most versatile and has the most polyphony.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I personally lean towards hardware synths and have never been a real fan of most of the soft synths. I also wonder if some of the issues people have is not with the sound but with the GM standard. GM is a good idea but the GM patches always seem to be inferior. Want a good synth for cheap? Go on the net and buy an older rack mount synth used. I still use my trusty Roland 1080 which most all studios owned and you can get those for 100 bucks.
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Here is a MP3 file (12 bar blues - public domain) made with Norton Styles and about 99% General MIDI patches. http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/Sweet_Home_Chicago_M128.mp3What's inferior of those GM sounds? Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Add your sax to that, Notes, and I bet it's screamin'!
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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I hate to say it Bob and Bob, but those two files are really ringing endorsements for realtracks and the need for realStrings and realHorns.
They sound fine and all -- but they don't sound that real. Now I know there are high quality samples out there that do sound real -- but they are out of most of our price ranges.
Kevin
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A midi primer here: www.indiana.edu/~emusic/etext/MIDI/chapter3_DP5.shtmlI personally don't want to spend my days messing with the velocities of an english horn, to make it baroque. Either way. THE ONLY test of the thing is the END result. How you get there does not matter. You can spend 20 hours on 20 notes, or 20 hours playing 200 tunes. Whatever turns YOUR crank. Take your backing tracks, done either way, and ask someone who's never played an instrument to critique it. To my mind the biggest thing is to get realistic enough guitars. Almost every person over the age of 20 has had or has a close friend with one. On a given occasion, they can take it out, tune it a bit, and play 4 bars of Stairway... They then are sort of experts and talk for days about pickups and humdingers and bucking this and amp that and delay with 800 feet of cable, and golly they could just improvise in the American National thing in front of 50,000 screaming fans, and become famous, oh yeah! So the problem is your guitar has to sound very good. I'd suggest putting in the riff to Stairway in almost every piece, buried. LOL, there's a plugin to make!
John Conley
Musica est vita
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[Bob]: Here is a MP3 file (12 bar blues - public domain) made with Norton Styles and about 99% General MIDI patches. http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/Sweet_Home_Chicago_M128.mp3======================================================== Nice MIDI arrangement Bob, thanks for posting it. I don't see MIDI vs RealTracks as an "either-or" issue. They are different tools, and each have their uses, including combining them at times. For example, there's an excellent MIDI blues demo that was posted above. That would be ideal to use in a club for a dance. The RealTracks version of that sounds different, and would likely be used in different situations, maybe for when you're jamming (practising), or wanting more of a live-player sound. Here's a RealTracks version of that, with the RealTracks "Blues Brothers" Sol Philcox and Brent Mason, joined by John Jarvis on Piano Audio: http://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/jazzu/misc/BluesEPianoGuitar.WMAActually it's just a demo of our RealTracks Set 140: Texas Blues Shuffle - playing over blues changes, but if you compare it with Bob's excellent MIDI sequence, it gives you a good comparison of the differences between MIDI and RealTracks, over a Blues progression. (everything you hear, including the guitar and piano solos, were generated by BIAB, by pressing play. The 3 soloists (John, Brent and Sol) are trading off choruses, which is a feature added in 2011. Song took about 60 seconds to make). Of course, as with any RealTracks, you can type in any chords, any key and you'll get a full arrangement with soloing like this.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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I wanted to run a blindfold test but I can't get Notes version to download, it says server execution error.
As for the PG version, I find it too busy for me. Now, that said my tastes have changed. I hung out in blues clubs for years, every weekend. Smokey, beer sticky on the floor, low ceiling, and every standard blues thing in the repetoire.
Alas with the hearing loss I'm no judge of anything, except I lean to minimalism, so a simple bass and drums behind my piano and I'm happy.
If the style is midi then I get that.
But I'm 90 percent realtracks, and even changed most of the folk song repetoire to those.
Some guitar player should weigh in here.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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One thing you can do to improve a midi song is to add real stuff to it (or real tracks). I bet if you swapped out the drums and piano for realtracks in Bob N's blues demo, everything would sound more realistic.
... but it does sound better the more I listen to it.
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