PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Song reviews

Hi all
In another post there was a discussion about commenting of people's songs when posted in the User Showcase. I will not comment on the views stated in this post, but I did express my sympathy with (some) of the more critical statements, hence I would like to explain how I look at it.

I realize that people have different views, both in relation to give and receive feedback on songs and this has also been subject of several discussions here in this forum.

The main weakness of the general feedback - as I see it - is that the focus of feedback is based on more sketchy info held in very positive terms, and most importantly you very seldom see feedback emphasizing obvious weak parts of a song, like singing out of tune, monotonous songs lacking structure and variation etc.
I know many have the attitude, if you cannot say something nice, you better say nothing. In my view, this standpoint should not prevent you from giving constructive ‘negative’ feedback.

I have had the luck that some here in this forum have commented on my songs rather constructively, and I have learned of lot, and I want to thank you for that. In a scenario where people praise each other only, and say nothing because “I can’t say something nice” the inner value of the feedback is in my view very limited.

I understand that some of you don’t really need or request a thorough feedback, and this is perfectly fine, however I believe there is other who really would like to have ‘an honest’ opinion from forum members, and maybe – as suggested earlier, from other forum members – it would be time for changing the setup in this forum.

Maybe some expert could draw out some kind of a checklist for giving feedback, if people ask for it? Just some thoughts…

Hope you take this contribution positively, and constructive my purpose is to contribute to an improved ‘feedback service’ in this great forum.

Your view.

Thanks

// JanR

you make a very good point Jan, and I agree that some guideline would be useful.

One thing that makes it difficult to accurately critique music is that the people who are posting songs are all over the place on the musical learning curve. Just as it wouldn't be appropriate , helpful or encouraging to critique an essay written by a 6th grade student with the same severity as one might critique a university level submission, the criticism here should also take into consideration what level each person considers himself to be on, and other users should judge according to what a person at that level should know.

AFter all, the goal isn't to bash anyone's confidence, but rather to give helpful suggestions that might get the person to the next level of expertise. A little praise isn't a bad thing unless it is false praise that encourages people to retain bad habits

Perhaps a good starting point would be a group discussion in which we jointly decide on several different levels of expertise. Then we can come to an agreement about what skills should be expected at each level, and use that list as a basis for evaluating songs submitted by people of each group.

If people then post their songs accompanied by a self-detrmined "level" (novice, enthusiast, hobbyist, performer, engineer, to suggest a few. More ideas are welcome)
then the forum can compare the proficiency of the song to the expectations for that level.

For example, you wouldn't expect a hobbyist to have mastered the mixing process, but you'd expect him to have a reasonable song structure and to be on key

We could even have a scenario in which after a certain number of good reviews, the group promotes someone to the next level, after which they can no longer post songs to be judged at a lower level.

Thoughts?

Which levels of proficiency can we agree on? Let's brainstorm some ideas here.
And what are the expected proficiency levels for each stage of advancement?

I totally agree Jan.The only caveat is you do have to have a knowledge of the person that's giving objective feed back. he/she may not have a clue and could be giving totally bad opinions.
As far as subjective opinion. It's a matter of "I like it" '"I don't like it". Be honest.

My take on this is that if one wants an honest critical review of one’s song they should state something like construction criticism is welcomed. Otherwise I considered the song finished.

Also with the RDs, RTs and good sounding MIDI sources it is getting harder and harder to produce a ‘bad’ song. A good vocalist and/or instrumentalist can produce some outstanding music now with BiaB/RB.

As far as a song being monotonous, if that was a criterion contemporary radio airplay would be dead! Many top hits of both today and yesterday are/were redundant.

Broadjam has a rating system very similar to what you describe and personally I don't think it works. One of our PSR (a band I help record and play with) members has sent songs up on Broadjam and the ratings are dependent on what music genre is being evaluated and by what music genre the one who is rating plays. For instant he put up a country song and got a couple of very rude and bad ratings. Things like “this sucks” and “this is crap” came up with a 1-2 out of 10 rating. When he looked at the evaluators he found out they were gangster rappers! He also got some 10 ratings, of course from country musicians.

Although you did bring up some good points I like the ratings as they are now. However if one wants he music to be evaluated he should say so.

Finally I personally will not say a person’s song sucks. I know that they put in a lot of time and effort to produce that song. Constructive criticism I will give if asked for or if I feel it is necessary but most of the songs here are very well produced.

This is just my opinion on this topic and I’m sure others will disagree.

I propose the following groups by which people might identify themselves when they post a song:

1) NO JUDGMENT REQUESTED
this person just wants to post and will be offended if we offer suggestions. But, in all fairness, anybody who posts this way shouldn't get to hear praise either.
"No comments is no comments"

2) EXPERIMENTAL
this person isn't inrterested in following the "rules" of recording, they just want to try things that sound interesting. Appropriate commentary for this person would be to say whether it hit the mark of being interesting or not, and maybe mentioning thoughts that might have made it MORE interesting

3) NOVICE
This person is at stage 1 in the learning curve. They mostly need to hear what they did right. Too much criticism too soon will make people stop submitting

4) PERFORMER
This person has experience playing live, but that doesn't necessarily translate well into the recording world. Tips here might focus on differentiating between what works on stage as opposed to what works in a studio. This person is actively committed to learning how to write and record songs. A person at this level may be on drugs and want to kill you if you criticize him. Hah ha, just kidding. Well, maybe not in all cases. Test the waters before committing too much criticism.

5) APPRENTICE
Anyone at this level should be hungry for advice, good and bad

6) JOURNEYMAN
This person has been around and had his share of successes, and can probably do a lot of things right. I'm thinking this person might be more resistant to criticism than some, because in his mind, he already knows how to do this. Gentle suggestions rather than outright criticism would probably work best with this person

7) EXPERT
This person is skilled at writing, arranging, performing, mixing and mastering, but is not a paid professional. AT this level, some nit-picking should be acceptable, because there shouldn't be any glaring problems anymore

8) PROFESSIONAL
this person may offer paid mastering services to the public or have a commercial studio. Most of us will probably not hear any problems with this person's submissions, and even if we did, the person would probably plead artistic license. But a person at this level should be proficient in all aspects and therefore subject to any and all criticism

Negative -but constructive and/or specific- comments are way more useful to me than positive comments. Of course I like to know that my work is appreciated by other persons, but I learn a lot hearing other people pointing negative and specific points of my works, even if I don't always agree with them. On the other hand, in a virtual forum like this one, is not always easy criticizing others people's works without sounding rude, specially when english is not your native language.

Great thread and gooid points here.

I have seen some REALLY nasty comments posted on other forums. And wars were started by "experts" because of someone's opinion. They are opinions, after all.

I like to listen to people's music as a listener first, not as a musician. If a critique is requested, and I find something I consider out of kilter, I find it best to preface my comments with something like,..."for my tastes, if it was me", or "I prefer", or maybe even echo a previous poster on what I considered a weak point. I don't consider myself to be qualified enough to say something is "good" or "bad", except in the realm of whether I like it or not.

As a personal example:
I posted a song a few years back. One of the responses was something like, "Before you post a blues song, you should learn how to play the blues. That wasn't even close." I got nothing from that. Maybe if he said, " I would have preferred a different feel during...., or you might want to try revolving around this scale..., or "many, if not most players I've heard, do this..... on something like that"

It's not what is being said. It's how it's said.
The person who critiques that "IT SUCKED"!!!, is the same guy who get's pissed when you critique his response.

Jan,

My understanding of the forum is that it's a "Showcase" forum and not a "Developing musician/songwriter" forum. I disagree with many of PRearden's comments because he was, in my opinion, looking at the forum as something that it wasn't designed to be.

Because the forum is meant as a showcase for songs, my personal observation has been that everyone who posts a song there does so because they are immensely proud of their work and would like to share it with the world. Also, as has been already mentioned in above posts, the expertise of song submitters covers a huge spectrum - from raw novices to accomplished experts. This makes making appropriate comments difficult unless you've been around a while and are aware of a person's songwriting journey. The one certainty, though, is that everyone who posts a song, generally posts what they consider to be the absolute best they are able to compose at that point in time when they posted. I have no desire whatsoever to "step" on this personal accomplishment. People should be allowed, and even encouraged, to feel proud of their work!

I noticed that the PRearden also mentioned that if a person wanted to gain more experience in Songwriting, they should join a songwriting forum. I wholeheartedly agree with this. To me, as indicated above, the Users Showcase is not about songwriting tuition.

As an aside: for a number of years, I have been getting my songs critiqued by a group of local songwriters whom I trust and hold in high esteem. That being said, I have found that critiques can sometimes be based on personal prejudices or lack of musical understanding under the guise of "this is how music works". For example, comments about how "an introduction must be 4 bars long" when a huge number of successful songs have not had 4-bar intros; comments about how a lyrics' rhyme scheme must be one of a handful of possible patterns. To my mind, such comments don't show an appreciation for how song structure dictates and controls a listener's attention and emotion. For example, The Beatles wrote "Yesterday" with 7-bar A-sections; if you change that to an 8-bar A-section and try it out, it's easy to appreciate that the odd number of bars are essential to the song's emotional integrity. I always balance what people say against my understanding. My observations suggest that many posters in the Showcase Forum do not have this ability to put a critic's comments into musical perspective.

Recently, I attended my 15th weekend songwriting seminar. This represents over 150 hours of tuition from some of the best songwriters in the world today (Pat Pattison, Steve Seskin, Beth Nielsen Chapman, Jason Blume, Steve Webber). At this most recent seminar, I sat there thinking about how much I still have to learn. I don't know enough to comment legitimately on the work of others yet. Personally, I prefer the User Showcase to stay as a showcase forum and as a place where users can feel proud of what they've produced. To my mind, the forum should be a place for fun and maybe even to show off a little bit.

Regards,
Noel

I pretty much agree with Noel and Mick. I welcome constructive criticism of my songs. But I am pretty selective on whose criticism I listen to. If you are not a professional, or connected to the music industry in a way that your opinions matter, what you say to me is really just an opinion. Opinions are important, but can completely differ from person to person. Like everyone, I hope you all really like my music. And I love it when I receive glowing comments of praise. When someone posts something constructive, or even negative, I really endeavor to be as objective as I can about it (somewhat impossible to do about your own song). I try to keep an open mind, and if I agree with the opinion stated, I will change. But I always remind myself, it is only an opinion. Some people's opinions are more valuable to me than others.

When I want a true critique, I would not turn to anyone that I don't trust to give me a good and truly constructive one. I have a friend that I go to with all my songs, and he usually rips them to shreds. In turn, I eagerly await his next song, so I can return the favor! He is a professional musician, has owned his own sound company, and I have known him over 40 years. I trust his judgement, and he mine. His opinion counts. When I have had songs placed, that takes me above and beyond "opinions". That takes a song to the true "critiquing" level, and in my opinion that is done by professionals. When you get to that level, you better be thick skinned.

Having said all this, I do think the most important thing to all of us should be to have fun and really enjoy this thing called music! Very few things in this earth bring me the joy, peace, and full range of emotions that music does. As has been stated before, we have an extraordinarily broad range of experience, from beginner to professional in this forum. We all need encouragement, at every level.

When we do offer our opinions, and they are "constructive" we should at least try to offer them with grace.

I'm sure I have overestimated your interest in hearing what I have to say on this subject, so I will stop here!

This is a great forum, and I have come to really enjoy interactive with a great group of people here! Thanks for your "friendship", and have a blessed day!

Steve

How about a "Constructive Critique Appreciated" button which the poster could check when posting their song to indicate that they are willing (or eager) to take advice from the forum members?
Carkins

I'm impressed by anyone who posts their own music - especially with their own vocals. Anything that would make someone feel bad about a song they did, or discourage someone from doing another song is a bad thing.

Ever since I posted a critique where none was requested, I try to make sure someone's actually open to input before mentioning critical things. That is, they specifically ask for feedback.

I've sort of promised myself that I'm going to post a song with vocals before getting back into the game again (but I'm not particularly good at following my own rules ).

Another possible solution would be to have two forums for the "User Showcase". The first would remain as "User Showcase". This could be for folks who simply want to post their songs without having others "nitpick" them. People could be encouraged or "guided" by comments of other users to continue making music and improve their skills.

The second could be "User Showcase For Critical Review". This would be for the more advanced recording artist/musician/songwriter and wouldn't be for the hobbyist or the faint of heart.

The first two rules for both showcases could remain the same:

Quote:

---

- The songs must be originals, no copyrighted or "cover" songs. You must have all of the rights to the songs.

- Start a new thread with each new song post. Don't add new songs to an existing thread.

---

The third rule for the "Critical Review" could be "You Asked For It". LOL.

This wouldn't be a license to be mean, but it would allow "nitpicking" of all aspects of the song. Users should be instructed to refrain from commenting on genre's they don't like, (i.e., I don't like polkas, so I shouldn't be trying to tell someone how to make a better polka song).

This would allow the more advanced users to help each other create better music and mixes.

It would free up listeners to post honest comments because the poster "Asked For It".

Just my 2 cents.

I'm just here to have fun,but if you want say anything about my music you certainly can ! There are a lot of songs I don't care for and would tell you if asked me ,but if you don't want it I won't and would never tell someone one again they sucked at music. I did tell one person that they sucked and he went home and practiced till he didn't ,and he still thanks me for motivating him to do better. I still feel bad about telling him in that manner,so never again for me. I do like the idea of multiple showcases ! How about a collaboration one also ?

Thank you all for your views on this topic. I appreciate people have different view on this topic, there are no rights or wrongs.
I personnally would like to see a forum where I could get peoples honest opinion. I realize that the comments would be subjective, that is fine for me, if people say "I don't like your song" I would hope it would be followed by: "the reason I don't like it is..."
There are many good suggestions here, maybe we could inspire PGM to work on a something.

Thanks
Jan

I think globally. The song (whichever) needs cowbell at bar 5. Otherwise someone will take it seriously, seriously. I am of course joking. A thick skin is something that seems more and more lacking. If it is mine, and I like it, I really do not give the rodent type backside if you want to tell me that I have flat Sybill Ants, or I slur. You might slur too if it happened to you.

John:
A case of move over Tom Waits . . .
. . . . nor does Time, for that matter.

Seems that the critique questions are purely at the request of the poster.
What do you want to know?
Do you know how to step back and listen to your work as a third person?

As for me, if I've written and framed what I think is a good tune, and since my
hearing is buggy to say the least, I might be tempted to ask the forum "what am
I missing?" Someone might say I'm flat, someone else I'm missing a bridge,
someone might suggest I rewrite the melody. It's all been said here before,
since and pre-dating the User forum.

Cheers lads

All of my songs are open for full-blown, full-tilt criticisms, yes everything, including off-key singing (ha, ha).

Guess what, newbie's opinion are just as important as the "pros". How many labels rejected The Beatles, Garth Brooks and countless other big stars before they got signed? The Pro's just have opinions, too. The pro's can point out more technical things -- but as to whether song works or not -- opinion!


Kevin