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Fixing a bad mix, while in the realm of a mastering engineer, is probably the last thing he would want to do to try and make it sound as good as possible.
Kevin, I really hate doing this, but not in my experience.
Sometimes you can be given an excellent product to work on - something which is well recorded and mixed with a nice leveling amp applied at the end. In a case like this, there's not a lot of work, if anything, to do, yet people still expect you to make it sound better.
On the other hand, you can take someone's huge disaster and very quickly make a noticeable difference. Easy money and less stress.
ROG.
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Quote:
Quote:
Fixing a bad mix, while in the realm of a mastering engineer, is probably the last thing he would want to do to try and make it sound as good as possible.
Kevin, I really hate doing this, but not in my experience.
Sometimes you can be given an excellent product to work on - something which is well recorded and mixed with a nice leveling amp applied at the end. In a case like this, there's not a lot of work, if anything, to do, yet people still expect you to make it sound better.
On the other hand, you can take someone's huge disaster and very quickly make a noticeable difference. Easy money and less stress.
ROG.
Ha, ha -- I don't think you are supposed to admit to that!
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I'm not trying to drag this thread out but I've been ill for the last few days and wasn't able to check back to see how it was going. I'm finely able to look today.
Thanks ROG for adding the gain reduction info in your reply to my last post, I completely overlooked that.
I know in the analogue realm it is good to record tracks as hot as possible and that a bit of distortion or tape saturation is also a good thing.
Everything I read: articles on various websites, videos and even in the BIAB manual all recommend recording at lower levels (around -12) when working in the digital realm.
I know there are quite a few experienced mixing/mastering engineers here on the forum, so my question in the pursuit of better knowledge is this,
Instead of trying to record tracks as hot as possible in the digital realm and then having to do a gain reduction so compression and other processing can be done...wouldn't it save time and an unnecessary step to just record at the recommended levels? You could do your processing, get your mix as you want it and then bring up the gain in the mastering stage.
Everyone has their own ideas and I guess in the end how it sounds to your ears rather than sticking to levels is the deciding factor but some thoughts from those experienced working digitally would be great.
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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To help understand this -12 thing I need you to do this. If you have a pro level mixer look at the leds. You'll see that the "clip" led is at +12.You say "what difference does that make?".The reason is we didn't go from analog tape to digital computers and CDs. There was another step. We went from analog tape to digital tape machines BUT & this is a BIG but. All of the rest of the gear was still analog.
Compression is a good tool but often misused.It's real job was to take recored material with a large dynamic range and "squeeze"it so that it could be pressed onto a record that only has a dynamic range of around 54dB.
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To help understand this -12 thing I need you to do this. If you have a pro level mixer look at the leds. You'll see that the "clip" led is at +12.You say "what difference does that make?".The reason is we didn't go from analog tape to digital computers and CDs. There was another step. We went from analog tape to digital tape machines BUT & this is a BIG but. All of the rest of the gear was still analog.
Compression is a good tool but often misused.It's real job was to take recored material with a large dynamic range and "squeeze"it so that it could be pressed onto a record that only has a dynamic range of around 54dB.
Agree and disagree here...
Some of us use compression because we stink at playing our instruments. Like when I play bass for church, I compress my incoming signal into the amp like the dickens because I'm still new at it and it makes the sound engineer's job easier not having to deal with inconsistent levels coming from my amp simulator. He can control the amount of content I contribute to the overall mix with much more ease than if I fed him a tentative player's output.
Compression has all kinds of uses both in helping to record, taming existing individual tracks for anomalies, and on final mix-down signals. Used in many different ways - one of them which was to prepare tracks for recording to tape and eventually for radio airplay and it's own signal to noise ratio challenges.
Some even use it as an effect intentionally - not to transparently hide overzealous transients, or to pull up too quiet sections, but to make use of the distortion that results intentionally. This has been done for years on drum signals in rock and other type of recordings and even live use. I let the kick and snare and overheads saturate a bit through our PreSonus ACP88 at church.
-Scott
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yjoh, You and Jazzmammal asked "why" pros recommend recording at -12. Well here you go. Ethan is a well known pro - "Folks who have used analog tape recorders but are new to digital recording tend to set the record levels too high. With open reel tape and cassettes, it's important to record as hot as possible to overcome tape hiss. But analog tape is more forgiving of high levels than digital systems. Analog tape distortion rises gradually as the signal level increases and becomes objectionable only when the level gets very high. Digital recorders, on the other hand, are extremely clean right up to the point of gross distortion. Therefore, I recommend aiming for an average record level around -12 dB. or even lower to reduce the chance of distortion ruining a good performance."Source - http://www.ethanwiner.com/mixer2daw.html
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Quote:
this is a BIG but.
As the one who started the thread, I respectfully request that you leave my big butt out of this... 
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Thank you everyone for answering, it is much appreciated.
John,
I only have an old Yamaha 4 track but I understand the +12 levels you are talking about and any recording we did was done hot as possible. Even though it is still analogue gear, my understanding is, (and I'm willing to be wrong) once it is recorded into the computer, it is converted to the digital realm and the lower levels on the meters in the computer software program then apply. This is why I felt there was 2 different discussions taking place and it was getting all muddled up.
Scott,
I agree, from watching my compression video I have been quite amazed at how much more it can enliven a track if the user knows what they're doing (which I'm definitely don't as yet, but getting better)
Rharv,
Thanks for answering, that was my understanding exactly. I don't feel as though I'm going mad so much now. Thank you!
I've read Ethan Winter's articles before and have his site bookmarked. He is very good and makes a lot of sense.
Eddie,
Don't worry I'll leave your but out of it, but (no pun intended) thanks for starting this thread, it has been a learning experience.
Thanks again everyone, I feel I can move ahead now and don't feel like such a beginner. Whew!!!
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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I am reading the manual from Izotope's Ozone, which I really like, by the way, and on page 12, it states
"The bass will typically be under-represented on small studio monitors".
This reinforces one point made here as to why my bass is always too loud. I make the bass sound good on those monitors and it is too hot for anywhere BUT those monitors. Point noted and filed away in my aging memory bank.
Now to practice with their compression tools.
It's funny how we get locked into a routine and that routine becomes akin to a horse wearing blinders. There are things in RB and Sonar that I never even noticed because I never had a reason to look for them. Someone mentioned grouping tracks so they can be adjusted at the same rate. I don't know how much I'd do that, but the point is I didn't even know I COULD create subgroups like that. So many threads have gone past that refer to some specific part of RB and I said "Real Band can DO that?" Need to experiment more and not get so focused on finishing a song in exactly 57 minutes (if you get what I mean). I call it "done" too soon.
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Quote:
Therefore, I recommend aiming for an average record level around -12 dB. or even lower to reduce the chance of distortion ruining a good performance."
Here's the point that is getting missed and is also where I was wrong in my comments about riding the faders.
Since I have been corrected about my misstatement concerning you can't get a good mix simply by riding the faders, that still begs the question: If there's no problem with riding the faders then what difference does it make if your tracks are all at -2db or -12db as long as there's no distortion? There is no automatic normalizing, limiting whatever going on. The faders themselves simply act as a gain changer so just ride the faders down until you're not distorting the output bus and you're good to go. Eddie summed it up himself when he said so I can record as hot as I want as long as nothing is clipping and just mix using the faders. Right? Not exactly.
What about dynamic range as Silvertones mentioned? You can create some dynamics between tracks just using the faders but what about dynamics within any given track by itself? If the whole guitar track for example is up at -2 and that's where it is for the whole song maybe that's not what you want. A bridge, chorus, solo sections can all be at different levels during the song and most times they should be. Very few musical tracks of any song are going to be recorded at the same level throughout. If a quiet section is at -10 and a screaming solo is at -1 then how can the overall track be at -2 unless it's been compressed or limited already? When you apply Gain Change in RB almost always automatic limiting is checked so it looks like simply applying Gain Change is fine. Uncheck that Limiting box though and then apply some Gain and see what happens. Most raw recorded audio has all kinds of peaks in it whether it's you strumming a guitar or singing. You soon realize you can't apply much Gain Change at all without checking that Limit box without clipping.
In the other thread I posted my discovery about how RB generates a Real Drum track. It came in at -24 on the meter but blow it up inside the audio edit window and peaks were at 0db and RB is not going to generate (record) an audio drum track using automatic limiting or compression so it has to keep the peaks under 0db. We all know virtually every audio engineer compresses the drums but the question is when will they do that? There's many different answers to that I'm not going to go into now but my point is if you want to hear what a virgin drum track sounds like before any manipulation then it goes back to my original point, you don't do a gain change or anything else to that track, you have to instead turn up your studio monitoring system and using the faders, bring down all the other tracks so you can effectively mix your new drum track. Then you dscide what you want to do with it. This is the same principle for all your other instruments and vocals. Unless you're doing some tune that is going to be the same exact boring level all the way through, then that is the answer as to why you should record and keep your individual tracks down around -12 or less. To maintain dynamic range at least initially. You may later decide to reduce that range by using compression and limiting but you don't want to paint youself into a corner by having your initial tracks too hot. Then you're doing what ROG referred to, applying an expander after the fact to try to recreate some dynamics and then mix it in order to look like a hero to a new client who did it wrong in the first place.
I think this makes sense now or did I screw this up again?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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And then on the 8th day He created MultiBand Compression.If compressors have got you wait until you try these. They really are a MUST for Mastering.
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Don't remember if this has been mentioned, but besides the faders there is also a trim adjustment in RB for audio tracks, it's in the RealtimeFX window and many don't even notice it. Not sure if that has any limiting on it or not, but it should be easy to tell. I suspect it doesn't.
The more you know!
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Okay, so as the discussion continues, let me present this.
4 rhythm tracks
drums
bass
guitar
piano
3 vocal tracks
lead
bgv1
bgv2
2 solo tracks
guitar
sax
All of the above are recorded at this mystical magic number of -6db.
I start playing back. (I am not even looking at the index marks on the channel faders. Just doing things by ear.) Bass is not loud enough. I push up the fader a couple of lines. (Here I did not raise the recorded db level of the bass track, it is still -6db, but I DID raise the db level as far as the VU meter sees it.) So now I have the bass sounding nice and full, but man, now that scratching guitar track seems kind of week, so I slide that fader up a line. Nice. Bass thumps in harmony with the kick, the scratch guitar is playing off the hat real nice, but man, this piano is really lost now. Let me move that up a notch.
So here I have had to slide 3 faders up to give the thing some balls. Why did I not just record those three tracks hotter, at maybe -3db? In the logic that has been prevalent in this thread, recording low and boosting is better than recording hot and cutting. However, let's use that quick example above to say "Maybe that piano is up as high as it can go and there is no more fader left unless I take a saw and cut a groove in the mixer." How did recording soft satisfy me there? And if the answer is "do a gain change", how is recording at -6db and then doing a gain change of +3db not the same as recording at -3?
Why don't I want the wave form to fill as much as the track limits as possible as long as I don't hit the top or bottom barriers?
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A couple reasons to record a little lower: "The performer may play/sing louder than normal and actually clip the track. If you've ever heard digital clipping, you know this is a bad thing. You want to leave room (called headroom) to add effects..." source: http://audiominds.com/recording.html
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You want to leave room to add effects...
I don't grasp why adding effects necessarily increases the decibel level. You are augmenting what is there, not adding anything more.
I also don't get why taking a wave form that is recorded at -6db and doing a gain change of +3 db does or does not equal a wave form recorded at -3db. If I am standing on a scale, and you hand me a 5 pound weight, the scale will show to be 5 pounds heavier. Or if I stand on the scale and eat hot dogs non stop until I consume enough that I weigh 5 pounds more, either way the result is that the scale shows 5 more pounds than when I started.
I mention that scenario because many times while playing with mixdown I have watched the VU meters register "X", and then I go to a track here or there and do a 2db boost, and the VU meters never change, so I think I need to get clear in my mind the db level or each track vs how the summed total of those tracks affect the overall db level of the output.
I am really SO new to this side of the mixer....
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Hi Eddie,
I haven't time to do a big post, my long working day starts very soon, but read what Rharv said. You have to leave room to add effects and processing.
From my learning as it progresses, you get your gain from using compression etc. It all adds up as gain.
Your thinking is ok I guess if you just want to balance (I'm using this instead of "mix") the raw recorded tracks, but if you want to "mix" which entails so much more than just getting the balance between the tracks nice, you have to leave room for your processing.
Remember, you are where I was a couple of years ago. My humble suggestion is to start learning about compression and all the other processing that can be done in the mixing stages.
All the best, go to go now!
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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Compression ADDS gain? By definition, doesn't "compression" mean "to compact 'more' into 'less' and save space"?
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Compression can add gain when there is a 'make up gain' control involved.
Eddie, adding effects can increase levels if there is an output gain control on the effect like all of the good old Kjærus classic series or at least a good number of them.
-Scott
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Simple test Eddie. Take any audio track, highlight say 8 bars and open the audio edit window and look at the waveform. Don't just look at the VU meters because I already talked about how those meters are not as accurate as I thought they were and ROG explained that none of them are. They are designed to ignore transient peaks. That's why the RB generated RD part showed -24 on the meter but has -0 peaks in the waveform.
Inside the audio edit window with your 8 bars, apply some EQ by using the PG 10 band. Make a smiley face and add +3 to the highs and lows and look at the waveform again. You'll see that the overall gain of those 8 bars have gone up.
As to your overall question, I just answered it in my last post above. Apparantly correctly this time. If those tracks you recorded were all at the same level with no or very little dynamic range then yes, you're right just record them hotter. However, if they're all that level in the first place then you recorded them wrong as a player. You shouldn't be playing your parts like that with no dynamics. In the old show group the leader would have been all over your case because we were big on dynamics during the show. A song was not performed at the same level throughout. "Turn down that flippin rhythm guitar part during the verse, you're overpowering the vocals!" "And simplify that bass part too!" "You guys are playing like a bunch of school kids, just blasting away for the whole song!"
Iow Eddie, if you've recorded those parts with good dynamics then those tracks MUST be overall recorded lower or you lose that. If the quieter parts are recorded at -3 then where do you go for the loud solo's?
And turn up your monitors if you've run out of fader. Just crank em up. It's after you've achieved a good mix and bounced it down to a stereo two track that you then master it and increase the db up to where you want it.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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