PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic What do you consider a sellout?

Notes said;
"I play rock, disco, big band swing, jazz, R&B, C&W, blues, mambo, merengue, samba, calypso, soca, reggae, beach music, Motown, oldies, new age, smooth jazz, hiphop, dixieland, bubble gum, Broadway, zydeco and one opera song.

I find nothing immoral about any of them."

Your missing the point of the definition and it's not a personal attack on you or your choice of music. You can use a number of topics or scenarios to demonstrate the definition I gave. What you describe in your personal expose of musical styles that you play doesn't meet the standards of the definition of a sell out IMO.

The "moral" part of the definition was coupled with another word "principle". Both of these words are personal attributes that each person develops through their life and become a guide in their decision making process. Some people allow these attributes to control their decisions so much so that they make it known to the world that they would never compromise, not even if someone paid them. "I would never do that!!!!" That's what I mean when I say their has to be a moral declaration. It has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of music. It's a personal declaration and different for everyone.

Little Johnny: "I will never eat my brussel sprouts not even if you let me stay awake till midnight."
That's the declaration.
Dad: "What if I let you stay up till morning?"
Little Johnny: "ok!"
That's the sell out.

Please don't make it anymore difficult than that.

Hmm,
First, Eddie, I am taking something of a liberty by using what I understand of your perspective to make some points. Please understand I am not in any way having a go at you, but I am "using" you

Now, I know Eddie has some disdain for cover bands, and prefers to listen to original music. Fair enough, we all have our preferences. I only mention that to provide a foundation for this. I don't care if what I'm playing is original or not.

I primarily play for 3 reasons:
1) I simply enjoy "blowin' my horn", especially if I have managed to get better at it. I know I'm no "expert" whatever one of those is, in fact I consider myself a marginally talented hack, but I still have fun, no matter what genre I end up playing. Strangely, I even enjoy playing stuff I would never bother listening too - I really don't get that...

2) I really enjoy being involved with other musicians as we play our parts in making a musical "whole" out of what we are playing. Hence my preference for bands and not solo work. I regularly play in 3 "Big Bands", a concert band and a smallish (average of 8 pieces) jazz band. I also play all the amateur musical theatre productions I can ensconce myself in, and occasionally dep. in another concert band. I'm also involved in a brass band and wouldn't mind spending some time in a symphony orchestra if I can manage to make the opportunity. I would REALLY love to be able to play in a "house band" for something like the "*** Idol" or "*** got talent" TV shows - this connects to point 3 below...

3) I really enjoy entertaining people and generally am happy to play what the crowd wants, as far as I can, simply because that's what they want. There are some limitations here, though. Sadly, I have very occasionally committed myself to a gig and discovered that the "show" wasn't what I was expecting - because I gave my word I played the gig, but didn't enjoy it.

Now, I think Eddie would fully understand points 1 and 2 but I'm not sure he would agree with point 3. Unless I've completely misunderstood what he's been writing, I think he would consider the 3rd a "sell out" a) because I would be pandering to the crowd instead of my own preferences. and b) because I have played things I didn't like (even though it was because my word is important to me)

FWIW I agree with the simple definition:
Saying "I would never..." and then doing it for gain (usually financial) is selling out. I don't think anything else is...

It is a silly conversation! Do what you want for whatever reason you choose to do it. (At the end of the day that is what we all do anyway.) And if you change your mind, for whatever reason and at any time, then that is just fine. "Selling out" is just someone else crying sour grapes as they try to hold you to some standard they imagine is universal and meaningful!

Hi 3J,
No argument, it is pretty silly...


...but in the spirit of the OP's question:
I think the operative phrase here is "some standard they imagine is universal and meaningful!".
However, if you consider that there seems to be a consensus reached here that if someone nominates a standard and then goes against it then they qualify as having "sold out". Of course, on the flip side, as you said (I'm paraphrasing somewhat) EVERYONE, not only women, are allowed to change their mind

Exactly!

Never say never

If one says, "I'll never play pop music" and changes his/her mind a year later, is that selling out? Is that immoral? Is that abandoning principles?

I guess that's a judgement call, but I would save principles and morals for something more serious than that kind of music I play. But that's me.

For me immoral would be things like cheating on my wife (or someone else's wife), stealing, or doing something else to compromise the rights or property of another.

Some people think eating beef is immoral, I like it. As I said, immoral is a personal judgement call.

I personally don't think playing any kind of music would be a sell-out, as long as the person playing it doesn't think of himself/herself as a sell out.

I like playing music, and haven't found a style I don't like playing yet.

Insights and incites by Notes

Your example 3 just makes you a pro who honors commitments and is true to his word.

My point, as it would apply to me, would be after years of spewing my disdain for playing Mustang Sally, Moondance, anything my Skynard, and several others on my list, I join a band that plays those songs. I honestly, and I mean this 100%, will refrain from playing music ever again if I was told I had to play those songs on my "Never Again" list. I will go to this extreme to stay with my word. If I was playing a gig with a band, a band who did not play any of those songs, and someone came up and requested "Stairway to Freebird", and the band did it, I would quit the band immediately and not even finish the night. My logic is "If you are going to do it your way where I have no input and you have no respect for what I think is a solid, conscious, musical integrity (there is that oxymoron again!) based decision to never play those songs, you can just do it without me from that minute forward, and I wish you well but I will never play with you again. I am THAT staunch in my belief that there is no reason to be a "because everybody else plays them" chump band. I am not a chump. (Not musically at least. Several women in Ohio would say otherwise. But they all have nice jewelry to remember me by.)

The list:

Mustang Sally
Moondance
Gimme Three Steps
Freebird
Sweet Home Alabama
I Love Rock And Roll
I Hate Myself For Loving You
ANY disco (It is 2015)
ANY Skynard (I know more than those 3 chords)
ANY Kiss (See: "3 chords" above)
ANY Led Zepplin, especially that insipid "Rock'n'Roll" song (Just loud. Nothing more.)
ANY Jimmy Buffet (Seriously? Cheeseburgers? Margaritaville? Sober up and get a job. There is more to life than staying drunk and high all the time.)

I also won't play in a band that doesn't have a thumbprint. Don't be a rock band for 25 minutes, then be a country band, then disco, then punk, then jazz.... You may think that a song list like that will get you more work. I disagree. I believe it is 180 degrees opposed. You can't go into Bob's Country Bunker playing 60's R&B. (Watch the Blues Brothers movie again and you'll understand.)

I guess I should just say that I prefer to not be part of a cliche. I want a set list that NOBODY in town plays so people have a reason to come and hear me, that reason being that unique factor.

As usual I will say, that's just me and my opinion heavily seasoned by the fact that I don't play to pay my mortgage payment or buy food. I really want to play all my own stuff but there are not as many as 3 or 4 other musicians in northeast Ohio who would do that because (say it with me) "The clubs don't want to HEEEEAAAARRRR originals...." (Imagine that with the most annoying nasal whining tone you can muster.)

Sell out is a term I never have understood when applied to the music industry, as when most artist are interviewed they will say they do not want to be peg holed into one genre of music; yet when someone makes a splash in a genre other than the one they were possibly discovered in; they become a sell out. If someone can go from Country to pop as Swift just did and still have the success; more power to them. In most cases you only hear people use the term when they have either been wronged by someone who left for greener pastures; or they are frustrated artist who have lost the joy of music and it's purpose.

On the opposite end of the coin, everyone who plays for money is a sellout.

On a more serious note, I mostly hear the term when either:

1. When a musician identifies himself/herself with a certain form of music and a famous person who plays that kind of music leaves "the club" to find monetary success elsewhere
2. When a musician is envious of the fame another musician found

I don't understand either one:

1. There are no clear cut lines between musical genres, classical melodies find their way into rock songs. It's just music. --- Before Internet Radio, Nashville TN had two of the best jazz radio stations in the country and I read an interview from a big session musician who said, "Don't let the suits know you are really into jazz, because they believe in country music."
2. When a fellow musician becomes famous we should be happy for him/her. It's a rare thing, and it takes talent, a lot of luck, and so many other things that are not really under the control of the musician. Enjoying their success feels better to one's spirit than hating them for it.

For those reasons, I have never-ever called anyone a sell-out, and don't intend to do so.

I have played serious classical music, jazz, rock, country, blues, salsa and other forms of music. There are the same 12 notes in each genre, it's just how you put them together and how you use your technique to express them. It's even fun to get out of your comfort zone and try something different.

I've also been on the bandstand for decades, and there is one thing I know: When a musician does something that incites big excitement in the audience, he/she is going to do more of it.

So if and when you call someone a sell-out, you are really telling the world something about yourself.

Insights and incites by Notes