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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jun 2015
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Hello Folks;
When working with modal tunes in BIAB, e.g. So What, Crescent, India, etc... I find that the accompaniment generated by BIAB tends to be quite straight forward and not terribly interesting.
How do you folks configure BIAB to provide more interesting accompaniment to modal tunes?
Thank you very much,
vic
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Hello Folks;
When working with modal tunes in BIAB, e.g. So What, Crescent, India, etc... I find that the accompaniment generated by BIAB tends to be quite straight forward and not terribly interesting.
How do you folks configure BIAB to provide more interesting accompaniment to modal tunes?
Thank you very much,
vic Here is my two cents on the topic. Capturing a Modal Sound or playing modally requires that, the backing track (chord progression) and the melody or improvisation, target the unique notes which define the mode. In the case of So What, the backing moves over a simple Dm7 chord where Miles plays D Dorian and then goes up a half-step to Ebm7 over which he switches to Eb Dorian. The tough part is you are faced with 48 straight bars of Dm7 before the switch which allows me to get lost and miss the modulation to Ebm7. Keep in mind, Ebm and Dm do not uniquely specify Dorian, as any other minor mode could be played over this backing. So what is poor BIAB to do with these two simple chords. It doesn’t know you want Dorian all it sees is two minor chords a half step apart. And the two chords just ain’t much to work with. So it can use a Minor Pentatonic or a Aeolian or Phrygian all of which will result in a different vibe. In my opinion, BIAB does not play modally since you can not specify this unless you define the backing chords to be very specific to identify only the specific unique notes of the mode (for example, natural minor scale with the sixth degree raised a semitone forces a Dorian). So while the midi arrangements may follow this detail, it is unlikely any real tracks will unless you find RT’s by Santana who favors Dorian. Good luck.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Journeyman
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Hi Vic
As jazzmandan says you need to be specific with the chords over the course of the static harmony.
This involves using chords like D4 throughout the scale on D dorian (which is actually an inversion of Gsus voiced as D, G, C.)
Sequenced throughout the scale you get D4 E4 G4 A4 B4. The C major degree can support a CSus voicing. The F Lydian would have to be B4/F to keep it in a quartal zone.
Thats just for starters. To get something which resembles actual practice you'd have to side slip occasionally within the D dorian framework keeping it anchored to a D pedal point preferably. Here you will have to experiment with short detours to distant key centres coming back to D dorian.
Techniques to try are:
A repeating root progression of minor 3rds or some other interval cycle leading back to D dorian.
Superimposing another distantly related mode on D and using 4 and sus chords
The other thing I'd recommend is trying to use some holds and shots which define a riff or a feeling of three against 4.
Here's how this is done: in a 4/4 style set some bars to 3/4 then input chords in this fashion: (for example) |Csus...bd ^Dsus...bd| Ebsus...bd ^Esus...bd|Fsus...bd ^F#sus...bd| etc etc
This is a good way to build tension.
Later you can get on to using compound voicings, overlays and crunch voicings using BIABs extensive chord list and a novel use of its melody harmony feature. This will give you a later period McCoy sound. I can take you through this stuff if you want but its not for everybody!!
HTH
Alan
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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...but its not for everybody!!
HTH
Alan
Hehe, right you are. I follow a bit of that - good stuff  . Not sure how much things will sound like "So What", but if the Real Tracks can keep up, it would likely be more interesting 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Hello Alan; Thank you for your response! I understand the music theory you're speaking of, but I'm not a BIAB adept (yet). So, I'd like to take you up on your offer of walking me through the techniques, if I may. After I finished my list of questions, I saw that it's a bit long - I apologize for the laundry list nature of it. It would be quite understandable for you not to answer all or any of them. - How to enter poly chords/pedal points like B4/F
- How to create the "short detours" you mention - is it simply a matter of adding a new chord progression?
- How to create a repeating root progression
- How to add holds and shots
- What does your nomenclature of "|Csus...bd ^Dsus...bd|" mean?
- I've never heard of a crunch voicing - may I ask what you mean?
- How does one specify voicings explicitly?
- Might you explain what you mean by "a novel use of it's melody harmony feature"?
Thank you very much for your time Alan, vic
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Journeyman
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Dan This is a modal/chord change reharm of Invitation using compound chords formed by superimposing voicings on the original triads. You can always find alternative voicings in BIAB for this type of harmony. Invitation reharmonized Alan
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Hello jazzmandan;
Thank you for your response. Indeed, this is why modal playing is a challenge for anybody/anything that engages in it.
Happily, alan S. seems to have some tricks up his sleeve - if we're lucky he'll drop some more knowledge and we'll all get better at this!
Thank you,
vic
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Dan This is a modal/chord change reharm of Invitation using compound chords formed by superimposing voicings on the original triads. You can always find alternative voicings in BIAB for this type of harmony. Invitation reharmonized Alan Alan, that was actually cool!  Thanks for sharing. I know that stuff ain't easy and second it ain't easy in BIAB. Oh, and I love the key signature. 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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- How to enter poly chords/pedal points like B4/F
- How to create the "short detours" you mention - is it simply a matter of adding a new chord progression?
- How to create a repeating root progression
- How to add holds and shots
- What does your nomenclature of "|Csus...bd ^Dsus...bd|" mean?
- I've never heard of a crunch voicing - may I ask what you mean?
- How does one specify voicings explicitly?
- Might you explain what you mean by "a novel use of it's melody harmony feature"?
Hi Vic On pedal points and slash chords; simply right click on a chord and choose chord settings. you'll see a dialog box for pedal bass where you can specify the bass tone, the number of bars its held for and which beat it sounds on. For slash chords that don't have a bass pedal just type in the chord as in the example above Fsus/B. Compound chords which are an aggregate of two triads have alternative spellings which yield a voicing supported in BIABs chord list; e.g. Emaj/Cmaj could be rendered as AbmMaj7/C or even at a pinch, G13b9/C. By short detours I simply mean going out of the mode for a few bars using 4 or suspended chords from other keys returning to the home key. The reference to a 'repeating root progression' is better described as a cycle of chords where the roots are governed by an interval. e.g m3rds Csus Ebsus Gsus Bbsus etc. This is a good way of going 'outside' the key in a logical manner. Creating holds and shots using the nomenclature described |Csus...bd ^Dsus...bd| is a shorthand way of entering pushes holds rests etc which you can learn about in the guide. The | symbol was just my way of representing a bar line for the purposes of explanation, you don't actually input that.... alternatively you can right click on the chord and under 'chord settings' you are able to specify these variables in the dialogue boxes provided. A 'crunch' voicing is another word for a chord where the notes are bunched together in close proximity; usually referring to a build up of Major or minor seconds in the voicing. Specifying particular voicings isn't possible in BIAB when simply typing in a chord. Voicings are dependent on the notes present in the individual patterns that make up a part within the style. They can also be influenced by global 'embellishment' command which you can cancel within the style editor. (this is the embellishment command that actually works!) As I said before, you can sometimes achieve a voicing which isn't in the chord list by typing an inversion. e.g. CmMaj7b5#5 ( C Eb F# Ab B ) could be input as Ab7#9/C. The novel use of the melody harmony feature is something I have referred to in previous posts and would take a while to repeat for a beginner. I'll leave it for a separate answer when i figure out a way of describing it that wouldn't confuse the hell out of you!! . Suffice to say that its a way of adding notes to chords and/or achieving chord overlays.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Journeyman
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Dan
Thanks! Once you get used to the different sounds of superimposing the original chord over another, then find a way to approximate it using BIABs altered dominant chords, it becomes easier over time.
The main thing is to find uses for all the poly/compound chord voicings that suggest traditional functions of subdominant/ dominant/ mediant etc. but which can also be treated outside of functional harmony when soloing.
I also find that using the original 'vanilla' chords to a song as a starting point works better than a full arrangement full of passing chords and other substitutions.
Alan
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Thank you very much Alan S. - I very much appreciate your time and experience.
vic
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Journeyman
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Vic
You're welcome. I'll post some examples of the above ideas when I have time.
Alan
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Expert
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"Fascination"...what a great tune by Branislaw Kaper... First Jaco's* treatment....then John Coltrane...of "Invitation"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv-oNQuMCjEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8eYVN8hAlU"Invitation" by Carmen McRae, one of my absolute favorite female jazz vocalists didn't she do it so well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LeuPFt0N84Branislaw also wrote another tune in his "modal-mood" (just kidding)..."Green Dolphin Street"...and so... have you ever heard Sarah Vaughn use her unique skill at vocalize doing this great Kaper tune "scatted"?? I caught her at Mr. Kelly's, in Chicago...my home town... doin' a "modal number" on Dolphin Street: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjQiXz3FZEEven old G-Daddy remembers singing it decades ago, accompanying myself on my Roland G-303 Synth Guitar. Just loved this tune! {tongue-in-cheek}...just trying to stay on topic...sorta! *JOHN FRANCIS ANTHONY “JACO” PASTORIUS III (1 December 1951, Norristown, PA, USA – 21 September 1987, Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA)
Last edited by GDaddy; 08/25/15 07:34 AM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Vic, here's the problem with modal stuff and specifically the McCoy Tyner stacked 4ths style. There are no Real Tracks recorded that way. Same with the poly chords like the Steely Dan stuff. That leaves midi styles only. There are no midi styles included with the program with those voicings that I've heard.
But, you can write your own and specify exact chord voicings and rhythm in the style. That's great but then what have you got? You have a style that's only good for So What for example and if you use it for another song, it will sound like So What because of the chord rhythm. The song goes ba da ba da ba da ba da then the two chords Daa Daa. Hard to write that with a regular keyboard but you know what I mean. How many other modal tunes have that chord rhythm?
You're better off writing a midi file or finding one on the internet.
To the comment it's hard to blow a solo for whatever the amount of bars is over one modal chord then hit the change. That's what separates the men from the boys on stage. A master creates a killer solo, going off track, coming back, turning things around yet he hits the change perfectly. The wannabe's get completely lost on what seems like at first glance, a simple two chord tune.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Journeyman
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@jazzmammal As far as getting away from the 'So What' harmonic rhythm issue is concerned the only way to go is to be 'tune specific' using holds, shots and rests. Or else a midi input single note accompaniment counter melody that suggests the tune then using the melody harmony feature to create chord voicings out of that. The good thing about BIAB is you can approximate a lot of polychords using respellings; inversions of altered dominants over an alternate bass. e.g.Bmaj/Cmaj = F#13susb5b9/C. If you want to go further than that then just bounce the generated chords to the melody channel and use a one-note melody harmony to add a note to each chord in the sequence. (you need a new chord sheet for that one note though). A lot of this creates extra work so if you do have a midi file of the tune or even a score you can convert to midi I'd much rather roll my own style that way if possible. But then how much modern repertoire in midi can you find on the net? Alan PS Here's an example of an 11/8 modal accompaniment in midi with 'unsupported' chords using holds and rests to get an acceptable result. The tune in question is the Ralph Towner/Oregon classic 'Distant Hills' but using a non-'Oregon' style to get the ECM records version. You'll have to supply the melody though! If you want I can post the very specific scales Ralph Towner uses for the chords. Distant Hills
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