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As most may know until about two or three years ago I was playing in a UK brass band, and as you may also know brass band contests are a major thing in the UK, USA, and most of Europe. The question I ask is are there contests for other types of band, or single musicians, and what are your thoughts about turning music into a sport by playing to win a contest.
My own view is that music is music and shouldn't be turned into a sport, hence why I got out of the brass band scene and hardly play at all now.
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I think the brass band competitions are more about tradition than money, but I could be wrong. One of my favorite films, if you haven't seen it you might enjoy it, is "Brassed Off". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115744/ I agree about the other contests. Regards, Bob
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I have mixed feelings about music contests.
Around 1991 I became friends with a local celebrity named Robin Kessinger. He comes from a musical family and his grandfather has quite a few recordings in the Library of Congress playing old time fiddle music. Robin had won the National Flatpicking Championship once and had placed second and third in that contest. He's also won numerous state championships and various other flatpicking contests around the country.
He started encouraging me to start playing in the contests, but I wasn't initially interested in doing so. At the time I was playing with the local musicians who were into playing the more improvisational jazz influenced New Acoustic/Dawg music. I'd finally worked my way up to playing with the local “big dogs” of the genres.
As winter rolled around, I decided I'd work up some original arrangements to a bunch of my favorite fiddle tunes in case I changed my mind about the flatpicking contests. I incorporated techniques that I rarely used and ended up with arrangements that were far more sophisticated than my usual improvisational fare. In short, I grew as a musician.
So in the spring of 1992, I started playing in guitar flatpicking contests. I played a total of 7 contests that year. I got two 1st places, two 2nd places, one 3rd place and one 4th place. My competitors consisted of previous national champions, state champions and regional champions.
But guess what? I became very stressed out about playing the contests and it ceased to be fun.
On the plus side, I became a better player and learned a lot about arranging.
On the down side, I started dreading the contests.
I didn't play any more guitar contests until my son was 13 or 14 and we played a few just for fun. We managed to pull out a couple of 2nd place and a couple of 3rd place finishes in 5 or 6 contests.
I just enjoyed being on stage with my son.
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My only experience with contests is in the brass band context, which I must say leaves me pretty cold.
Not that I would disparage those that like contesting, whatever floats yer boat, hey, but what I HAVE found amongst the most serious contestants is the "office politics" that goes on behind the scenes.
This is what really destroys contesting for me. I have in mind one band that recently (last few years) had a new band master selected specifically to improve the bands performances - not a bad thing in its own right, but his method was to use contesting.
I have several personal friends who played in this band and who were driven out by the band master through abuse and public humiliation because he didn't consider them up to standard. He then introduced ringers from outside the region, mostly professional players, to take their places, all to win a couple of contests.
IMHO this is reprehensible conduct. TRAIN the players you have, DON'T just get rid of 'em - if the band is a D grade band, then it's a D grade band - who really cares as long as everyone has fun?
Of course, then there are the usually very technical "set pieces". They may be technically challengeing, but they are rarely musical or even interesting to listen to.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Interesting question.
I think although music is an entity in its own right, we adapt it to ourselves, and our version of it becomes an extension of us.
It is not in my nature to be competitive. In competition somebody has to lose so somebody else can win, and I prefer win-win interactions. My idea of music reflects that... I win because I'm having fun playing, and the audience wins because they get entertained.
But there is no doubt that competition pushes competitors to a higher performance, and so most cultures (western culture especially) encourage competition from a very early age.
So it makes sense that many people who ARE competitive (by nature or by nurture) would apply the same approach to their music as they do to their sports, business, and every other part of their lives
So I see this as a personal choice, much like the choice between ketchup and mustard. To me it has less to do with the music than it does with the individual's preferences
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Yeah, the situation you describe also shows up in school sports. One faction wants the kids to have fun playing with others and learning social skills and how to function as a team player.
Another faction wants to win, so they weed out anybody who isn't a potential star. It happened to my daughter in volleyball.
I see both points. They both have merit.
Interesting side point: after being "weeded out" my daughter became a "lone wolf" who doesn't depend on a group to promote or demote her. She has made some good decisions on her own, and now she is a very self-actualized person. So in a weird turn of events, her own brand of self-improvement came from being rejected.
Others might be crushed for life after such a rejection...
so again, it boils down to personality and how we apply our preferences to life. You can win or lose ... individually or as a team... under exactly the same circumstances.
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Interesting question.So it makes sense that many people who ARE competitive (by nature or by nurture) would apply the same approach to their music as they do to their sports, business, and every other part of their lives.
So I see this as a personal choice, To me it has less to do with the music than it does with the individual's preferences The above is my general take on it. I find all the opinions expressed here as valid. IMO....these 'contests' are ultimately just another way for one to get exposure, promote themselves and gain fame or recognition in their field. Nothing wrong with that....they all still have to work hard to achieve their personal goals. Me...I'm not a competitive person, don't care about being noticed and have never felt inclined to prove I'm better than anyone at anything. Obviously, contests don't work for me. I only compete with myself on different levels throughout life. In this context it's just to become a better song writer even though I fully accept my perception that what I write won't ever end up in the mass appeal arena. My only real goal in music would be to remain distanced from the you totally suck genre.  Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 10/12/15 05:46 AM.
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As I sort of intimated in my first post, I am not a competitive sort and found that similar to Lawrie's experience or at least his friends, the band MD was only interested in winning contest after contest and was slowly in the process of removing players he didn't think were up to it. I just got out before I got pushed out.
Another comment also from Lawrie is the music or so called, written as contest pieces and so obviously written to be technically difficult! Yet I have heard more interesting sounds coming from a well worn diesel railway locomotive's gear box. I was driving the thing at the time.
Unfortunately it is the entire thing of contesting and the horrible music it uses that has driven me away from even being interested in playing.
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Nev
It's a fairly good point being made. Pushing to the limit is one thing - pushing past the limit is something completely different. Strive to do one's best. No more required. Unless one wants to strive to do better than they did previously. Then it's an individual choice.
Trev
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The only contests I've entered of a musical nature are the monthly songwriting/recording contests at www.KVRaudio.com Payment for winning is in VST plugins. I've won prizes a few times out of between 30 and 70 entries. That's it. Performance contests, no way! I wouldn't have a chance.
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How would you assign first chair in a school orchestra? Does everyone get a solo?
/playing devil's advocate
//won some, lost some, but I entered all of them thru free will
///worst case was winning in excess and being promoted to a place you didn't qualify for, ala the Peter Principle
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Musical competitions are serious business, witness the Van Cliburn International Piano Competition and the Thelonious Monk Musical Competition.
As far as assigning the first chair in a school, the best player should play first chair and the others should aspire to play better and take the first chair.
Last edited by raymb1; 10/12/15 04:56 PM.
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As I sort of intimated in my first post, I am not a competitive sort and found that similar to Lawrie's experience or at least his friends, the band MD was only interested in winning contest after contest and was slowly in the process of removing players he didn't think were up to it. I just got out before I got pushed out.
Another comment also from Lawrie is the music or so called, written as contest pieces and so obviously written to be technically difficult! Yet I have heard more interesting sounds coming from a well worn diesel railway locomotive's gear box. I was driving the thing at the time.
Unfortunately it is the entire thing of contesting and the horrible music it uses that has driven me away from even being interested in playing. Your observation above would be disheartening but not to be unexpected over time. "Contest" defines the method by which one must operate under to win at all costs....not about the creative/collaborative music enjoyment anymore. That's not a pretty path to embark on for those that just love to play, improve and interact with those musicians of like mind. 2) But....you left with your sense of humor. Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 10/12/15 04:31 PM.
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Exactly, and in a lot of places it is a competition for first chair; you have to play something to get assessed .. I was just pointing out the competitiveness a lot of us grew up with in music without thinking about it. Sad to say I once had a guy tell everyone he wanted to fight me because I took first chair,.. it was silly. I tried to avoid it, but a crowd grew and eventually it was inevitable. I wound up with two black eyes and he went to the hospital for a broken nose. Sad part is his parents rented his horn from our store, so you can imagine how that whole mishap went over with the family ..  My mom walked me over to his house for an explanation of my black eyes only to be told he was at the hospital. That was probably the maddest look I ever got from my mom... all because of 7th grade musical competition. It's evil I tell ya.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Exactly, and in a lot of places it is a competition for first chair; you have to play something to get assessed. Sad to say I once had a guy tell everyone he wanted to fight me because I took first chair,.. it was silly. I tried to avoid it, but a crowd grew and eventually it was inevitable. I wound up with two black eyes and he went to the hospital for a broken nose. Sad part is his parents rented his horn from our store, so you can imagine how that whole mishap went over with the family .. My mom walked me over to his house for an explanation of my black eyes only to be told he was at the hospital...all because of 7th grade musical competition. It's evil I tell ya. Ho-ly shvtfire!..and only in 7th grade....yes..."it's evil". Sheesh....talk about ripping the enjoyment out of one's zeal to play music. You're truly a music combat veteran. Carry on...
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 10/13/15 01:48 PM.
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rharv, that's a great story now! Maybe his mom was one of those aggressive band moms and by you putting him in the hospital saved your mom from being attacked by his.
Our kids have been in the local HS marching band, which kicks some serious tail in the state band competitions - usually placing in the top 3 of all classes (it's interesting, there's a bunch of what would be 2nd or 3rd tier schools based on student population that run circles around the biggest schools), but I have a hard time being around the other band parents that are trying to make up for their inferiority complexes by telling the other parents how to do things like stand, balance a cooler on a little push wagon, etc.
I like listening to the drum and bugle corp competitions sometimes, but the point about being technical for the sake of technicality does wear on one. The ear pleasing mix of rhythm, melody and harmony sometimes take a back seat as a result.
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I've thought about this since I initially hovered over the subject - and I admit, I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if I am repeating.
I think there is room for both but I don't think the point of the music should be a contest.
Every year I was in school, I sat first chair in the all-state band. I even beat out the default alto as section leader, which made the other tenor players that I competed against cheer for me. This gave me a lot of confidence in my playing ability and the encouragement I needed to embark on a musical career.
On the other hand, I certainly don't think the point of playing music should be a contest. It should be for the players to enjoy making music and the audience to enjoy listening to music.
But then we humans like to make everything a contest, dance contests, cheerleader contests, beauty contests, and tons of other things that I don't think should really be contests because the winner is subjective.
In footrace, it's easy to pick the winner, whoever gets to the finish line first. The person who hurls the javelin the farthest is the clear cut winner.
But who can really say which of the two beauties in a beauty contest is prettier? Which movie is actually the best one? Who can say which of two great brass bands played better? There is no clear cut winner. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and who says the chosen judges are the world's foremost arbiters of good taste?
Once there is no score, no finish line, no clear cut goal, not only is no human qualified to judge it for all of humanity, but there is room for politics and favorites. That leads to corruption.
But again, getting first chair in the all-state band even when I was a freshman and over the alto players really made me feel worthy as a sax player. But was there someone better who was just having a little off day? Did my audition just fit with the taste of the judges better?
So I guess my answer is really a non-answer.
Insights and incites by Notes
Last edited by Notes Norton; 10/14/15 03:29 AM.
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Your assessment of it Notes is how I view things too.
Music as far as I am concerned should be for pleasure for both the player and the listener. If you are wanting to improve your standard, it comes as and when you try to apply it over time and yes you might push yourself to do so, though only at your own level and capabilities, not at someone else's pressure.
As you said, some things do leave themselves open to be a competition, running, throwing a javelin, jumping over a high bar, in fact anything that can be truly measured in an impartial way. Music to my mind can never be measured in that sense.
A player of say a trombone who now and then doesn't quite get a note correct and it is either sharp or slightly flat, against a player who nails every note bang on centre is a bit obvious as to who should win a prize. However at the top of brass banding where the adjudicator is sat in a tent and can't see the band or bands playing and can only hear them, I do feel there is certainly a human element of preference for the way a piece is played, rather than listening for skill of playing or even truly following the correct guidelines for passing judgement. It does all become a bit haphazard or chaotic and more dependant on the personality of the adjudicator, rather than anything that can be measured where everyone can agree the result is correct.
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I've heard some technically competent players who were completely uninspired - blah - meh.
And I've heard some musicians who made some errors or had intonation problems that really moved me.
If I were judge, which would I pick?
I'd pick the latter, and some of my fellow judges would have picked the first.
That's the problem.
It's easy to judge technical competence, but difficult to judge artistic merit. And to add to that, artistic merit is subjective and has no standard measurement.
To explain that point...
In the last half of the 20th century, two tenor saxophonists consistently made the top of all the jazz polls. Both are generally acknowledged as musical geniuses, but had very different tone and styles.
Me? I would vote for Stan Getz every time because his sense of melody speaks to me. Others would prefer the more angular melodies of John Coltrane. They were both technically fantastic, and they were both innovators in different ways. There is no way to judge which was better, only which one you liked better.
So how do you measure one band against another? I don't want to be the judge.
Insights and incites by Notes
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