the tune is take five its in gb it calls for a c flat minor 7 in bar 9 (beginning of the B part) i key it in and biab calls it bmi7. i know the notes are the same (i guess fretless guys will argue) BUT b minor just looks wrong to me. i look at bmin and think d major (relative minor) or c(dorian) or something that doesn't have 6 flats in the key sig.
i guess it is too much coffee. glad i figured that out back in my hole.
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I too would love to be able to force a Cb or an E#.
The situation doesn't come up often, and I do understand B is the enharmonic of Cb, but it is a tiny bit jarring to see it there in the music.
I'm doing "The Real Book" as one of my next fake books, and this has come up more than once already.
On the other hand, it's a minor point, one that I've adapted to. BiaB has so many great things going for it, I just accept the minor limitations that it has and hope in some future update, my concerns will be addressed.
I think it has to do with there are so many users already who have no clue what we're talking about that the question could be how far do they want to go to be classically correct?
Classically trained players go around and around with this all the time. Should you use the classically correct major key or the relative minor key when the song is obviously a minor?
Biab allows for flat key sigs. Put it in Eb minor which is how everybody thinks of it anyway. The bridge/turnaround ends on the 5th of Eb. So the entire bridge starts on the B but then goes to Bb minor which is the 5th, the Ab minor which is the 4th then to the GbMaj7 to the Fm/Bb or Bb which is the 5th. Basically it's just another minor blues that goes 1-5-4 with a couple of jazzy passing chords.
The problem is that if you are in a flat key and all of a sudden have a chord full of sharps, it throws the brain off. And vice versa from sharps to flats.
In general, a B chord is easier to read than a Cb chord (and I suspect more so for guitar players), but in the context of the Gb key signature, the Cb makes more sense.
John
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Not sure what you mean by this Herb. My comment was very serious from the POV of a live gig. Somebody requests The Thrill Is Gone and you ask what key is it in I'm telling you it's in Bm, nobody is going to tell another player it's in D. What would most players do in that case? They'll start the tune in Dm which will clash because now they're playing a Bmb5. I'm supposed to tell him well, we're playing the relative minor of D? This is the reason Biab allows for minor key sigs in the first place.
Not sure what you mean by this Herb. My comment was very serious from the POV of a live gig.
I think Herb was making a 'tongue-in-cheek' reply to the O/P.
Quote:
This is the reason Biab allows for minor key sigs in the first place.
I think any music program that didn't allow for minor key signatures would be seen as having a very serious functional limitation, surely?
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As I see it, the problem arises because there are three pairs of keys that are enhamonically equivalent.... that is, where key signatures can be expressed either as sharps or flats. (All other key signatures are unique events.)
The key signatures that have flat and sharp equivalents are Cb/B, Gb/F#, Db/C#.
If a song is notated in one of the above keys, and a problem exists in notation, try changing to the enharmonic key and see if the problem is resolved. For example, if the song is in Gb, change the key signature to F# and see if that works. (The problem that arises with this solution is that some people prefer to play in flats rather than sharps.)
As an experiment.... I just created a short progression in Gb (Gb, Cb, Db7, Gb). On the chord sheet this was displayed as Gb, B, Db7, Gb. I transposed the key to F# (pitch equivalent of Gb) and the display correctly read F#, B, C#7, F#.
Also...
When I converted the Gb display to Roman Numerals, it correctly read I, IV, V7, and when I converted it to Nashville notation it correctly read, 1 4 57 1. (It was not necessary to convert Gb major to F# major.)
Not sure that this post solves anything... I just thought it was interesting
The key signatures that have flat and sharp equivalents are Cb/B, Gb/F#, Db/C#.
This one I don't understand.
(I always thought that G#/Ab, A#/Bb, and D#/Eb are also equivalent, as well as E#/F, E/Fb, B#/C and in Germanic notation: Hb/B; B#/H (the last two don't make sense in English: Bb/Bb, Bb#/B))
The key signatures that have flat and sharp equivalents are Cb/B, Gb/F#, Db/C#.
This one I don't understand.
(I always thought that G#/Ab, A#/Bb, and D#/Eb are also equivalent, as well as E#/F, E/Fb, B#/C and in Germanic notation: Hb/B; B#/H (the last two don't make sense in English: Bb/Bb, Bb#/B))
Hi,
What I was meaning was key signatures and not single notes.
For example....
a) Key sig of Cb major (7 flats) = Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb b) Key sig of B major (5 sharps) = B C# D# E F# G# A# B
These two scales have exactly the same notes. The only difference is that one is written using sharps and one is written using flats. This same principle holds true for the other two key signatures I mentioned (Db/C#, Gb/F#).
The reason that the remaining key signatures are unique is because to notate them as enharmonic equivalents, one needs to use double sharps and double flats.
For example, consider using the notes Ab and G# as the basis for major scales. To do so requires the following....
c) Key sig of Ab major (4 flats) = Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab d) Key sig of G# major (6 sharps, 1 double sharp) = G# A# B# C# D# E# F## G#
I constructed the above using the major scale neighbouring note relationship of "root note, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, root note" in addition to the fact that each note of the scale must be part of an alphabetical sequence.
The music notation system of western music doesn't accommodate double sharps or double flats in the key signature position. This means it's not possible to notate the key signature of G# major.
I think Noel is referring to those key signatures near the bottom of most charts of the circle of fifths where key signatures of many flats or many sharps overlap.
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But I don't think the issue is so much with key signatures, but with the appropriate chords within a valid key signature. If I'm playing in the key of Gb (which is valid), the 4th is going to be a Cb, not a B. So it should display with the chords and associated notes as Cb (Cb,Eb,Gb,Cb), not (B,D#,F#,B).
Since the program already changes the notes, but is able to display notes from other chords and scales fine, I don't see why that can't be reversed and just display Cb, both as a note and in the context of a the chord.
If I can display an Ab chord as (Ab,C,Eb,Ab), why can't BIAB display (Cb,Eb,Gb,Cb). Why can it display an Ab or an Eb or a Bb or a Gb, but not a Cb.
That's what I don't get.
I do understand not supporting non-standard key signatures which have double-flats or double-sharps, but the chords and chord notes should be properly displayed.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA
IIRC, Notator (the predecessor to Logic) supported correct enharmonic notation displays in the 1980's. It's really not a big ask for it to be added to BiaB / RB in 2016.
In my view, it really wouldn't be too difficult, as the program is already capable of displaying every possible note on a stave. It just needs an added flag to identify the places it should use the enharmonic equivalence.
It already supports Force Accidental. This is not really all that different. It just needs 'Force Enharmonic' added.
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