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This must have been asked/covered before, but I don't find it.
I'm a songwriter, and solo folky-country-ish performer (I ain't all that, but I have a good time and have a small, twisted following). I'm new to BIAB, and I've started making arrangements for some existing songs, deconstructing and reconstructing. I've rarely played with an accompanist, if so usually just a harmonica or bass, let alone a whole band, and this is giving me a great opportunity to see what the songs might be if enhanced/supported by a band.
I don't need anything album quality, but I'd like the songs to be relatively mastered. I have one ready to go now. I could get a studio here to do it, but I thought I'd see if anyone here wanted to give it a shot. Trying to mix it is driving me insane. Many, many days. I'm probably too invested in the song and my voice, etc., to be able to see/hear it reasonably.
Original song, lyric heavy, story, 7 piece band and my vocal.
If anyone is interested, shout.
Either way, thanks for your time. This whole experience has completely changed me and my understanding of music.
Andy
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Andy... Welcome.
Since it is an original song done in BB/RB feel free to post it in the user showcase. Having some additional ears may either validate what you're thinking or suggest some additional corrections to the mix.
Mastering... is normally a process done to a group of songs to have them sound similar. However, aside from all that definition, I know exactly what you're talking about.
You want the song to stand out and shine in all the right places.
I call is either "small "m" mastering" or "song polishing" .
You can try LANDR.com which is an online mastering service, or you can take the time to actually learn how to do it yourself. If you write one song a year or there abouts, use the free online stuff, but if you have a lot of songs, learn how to roll your own.
Most DAW's will give you all the tools you need to polish your songs. However, many folks find that a "mastering suite" such as Ozone is the ticket. It contains presets that make the starting point easier to find. And yeah... the straight up preset settings sound good.
Ozone has a free trial, but be warned.... have the money to buy it because you will be so impressed that you will absolutely have to buy it.
I use Ozone with some customized presets and love it.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/14/16 12:31 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks, GH, for the website addy. Greatly appreciated.
Yes, it's more polishing than a true master. My upbeat (R&R honkeytonk band) songs work out fine naturally.
But, what I'm finding is for a lyric heavy song, telling a story where every word needs to be heard clearly the first time, and I'm accustomed to performing solo in a listening room environment, BIAB is uneven, so that's the issue. I have several DAWs, but they cannot control it unless I constantly slide, so the instruments ebbs/flows, and I end up making so many adjustments to instrument tracks that it has a ripple effect, e.g. increase keys at bar 31 to 104, return them at bar 42, increase fiddle, fade it later, etc., and those adjustments affect the instruments later. Find a spot where where an instrument blasts by it's own nature and smothers a few lyrics, so reduce that spot, increase it in a bar or two. By the time I get to the end area, say bar 140 it's become a jumble.
So, I'll give the program you suggest a spin (greatly appreciate the suggestion), and if I'm not happy I'll get a studio engineer to even it out.
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Sounds like a trip thru a DAW should take care of your issue. Use envelopes in the DAW and lower instrument volumns during lyric passes. Do it right one time and use that file as your master.
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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Cocotex There are some powerful tools out there that just might get you back where you need to be. One that comes to mind is iZotope Ozone 7 Mastering Suite. Like Herb mentioned, have your c/card ready. There's a couple of videos on this page that explain the product.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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Thanks, GH,
But, what I'm finding is for a lyric heavy song, telling a story where every word needs to be heard clearly the first time, and I'm accustomed to performing solo in a listening room environment, BIAB is uneven, so that's the issue. I have several DAWs, but they cannot control it unless I constantly slide, so the instruments ebbs/flows, and I end up making so many adjustments to instrument tracks that it has a ripple effect, e.g. increase keys at bar 31 to 104, return them at bar 42, increase fiddle, fade it later, etc., and those adjustments affect the instruments later. Find a spot where where an instrument blasts by it's own nature and smothers a few lyrics, so reduce that spot, increase it in a bar or two. By the time I get to the end area, say bar 140 it's become a jumble.
So, I'll give the program you suggest a spin (greatly appreciate the suggestion), and if I'm not happy I'll get a studio engineer to even it out. OK... THAT is not a mastering or polishing issue. You need to learn to mix properly. First of all, the BB tracks and the RB tracks are fairly consistent in their levels from start to finish. Most of the time I don't have to do any sort of volume envelope to adjust for inconsistencies in levels in any of the BB/RB tracks. There might be some minor variations.... but DO NOT try to micro manage the levels. That could be part of your problem. Notice in this song that my volume envelopes are pretty boring.... not much in the way of riding the volume levels.  This is the beginning of The Best Christmas... on my website. Work on only ONE TRACK at a time. You will become overwhelmed quickly if you're trying to do everything at one time. There have been times where I have reached that point. When I realize that I'm past that point, I start over. Delete all the plugs and the envelopes, mute all the tracks and start again with the rhythm tracks and one vocal, adding tracks as needed. Quite often I find I simply was trying to cram too many tracks into a song. You say "lyric heavy" but what I want to know is how many tracks besides vocals do you have in a given song? Start with the basics... the rhythm section....drums & Bass and perhaps one rhythm guitar. Those 3 things will be the foundation of the song and will play at a consistent level from start to finish under normal conditions. Normally, in my music, when a singer is singing, those 3 things are generally the only instruments playing. One other instrument will play fills in the space in between the vocal phrases. I use envelopes in the DAW to accomplish this. Generally, those 3 rhythm instruments will NOT vary in level even though they have envelopes in them. Envelopes are there for other reasons, including the end fade to black. everything goes out together. Dust on the Floor is a good example of what I'm talking about. http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13017714Envelopes in "Dust"  Keep it simple to start with. One mistake folks make is that since we have the ability to have dozens of tracks, we do. And that's fine once you get a solid foundation. 90% of my songs are between 6 to 16 tracks total. Some as few as 5. Mix the 3 rhythm tracks to a good basic mix, then drop your vocal lead vocal track into the project. Get that to where you can clearly hear and understand the lyrics. Now... without touching those 4 track's levels, add the fill instruments using envelopes to bring them in and out, and adjust their levels to the existing rhythm levels. You're not going for volume and loudness, you're going for a good sounding, well balanced mix at this point. Hope this helps.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Like Herb said and illustrated, mixing comes a long ways before even thinking about mastering. It took me a year to learn my way around my DAW (and mixing many songs) before I even thought about mastering. Mastering ices the cake but it needs to be a fine cake to start with.
Have fun...it's an interesting journey.
J&B
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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I see the envelopes, but what do they actually do? Sorry if it's a stupid question! Is it just for demo purposes on the screen to show how they have been used or are they actually doing something?
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
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I see the envelopes, but what do they actually do? Sorry if it's a stupid question! Is it just for demo purposes on the screen to show how they have been used or are they actually doing something? If you go to the song indicated on my site: Dust on the Floor, and listen to that song... this screenshot is approximately at the section right before the solo starts. Listen to how things are coming in and going out throughout the entire song. Volume envelopes in Sonar are controlling that process. And yes, if you watch Sonar in the Console view, you see the faders moving in relation to the envelopes that control them. Unlike other types of automation envelopes, you don't have to link these to the things they control. That's already done in the software. It makes things fast and easy when working with volume and panning envelopes. The envelopes are automation envelopes. As the song is playing and the time line is moving forward, the control connected to the automation envelope, in this case of the YELLOW envelopes, the volume of that track follows the automation. So yeah, they control the volume in the tracks. It's what I use to bring things in and out without having to do everything manually and in real time. In Sonar, I also use panning envelopes. For example.... if I have one guitar playing fills and solo, it's generally centered. But lets say, at the 80% point in a solo, I have another guitar come in to play harmony notes to the lead. Obviously, I don't want it centered, so I may set it at 60% left panning, nor do I want the guitars to be lopsided in the mix. So I use an automation panning envelope to move the original lead guitar to 60% right panning for that harmony part, and then back to center when the twin guitars are finished. If you listen to any of my songs, you will hear something like a mandolin or dobro come in to do a short lick fill and then it disappears from the mix until the next fill and so on. Envelopes that automate the volume faders do that. Using them surgically, you can easily have them in 2 or more tracks and pick and choose small sections of notes from one track, another section in another track and so on to complete a small fill. I use that technique a lot. Envelopes are worth learning about and using.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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What a great idea.  Thanks. I'll have to investigate this when I move to using a DAW. I'm assuming this is not available in BIAB but is in some format in Realband. 
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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What a great idea. Thanks. I'll have to investigate this when I move to using a DAW. I'm assuming this is not available in BIAB but is in some format in Realband. yep... I believe it is available in RB.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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What a great idea. Thanks. I'll have to investigate this when I move to using a DAW. I'm assuming this is not available in BIAB but is in some format in Realband. Yes, RealBand supports envelopes in the Tracks window
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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FWIW RB also offers this feature in the Piano Roll mode for various different Control Change messages.
If you insert Volume Changes in piano roll, they magically appear in the Tracks Window.. as Envelope Nodes.
There are lots of little gems inside RB. Discovering them is half the fun.
For instance I didn't know you could freeze tracks in RB until recently, since the need has never arose due to my workflow.
Since RB natively only generates what you tell it to, I've never needed to Freeze a track to prevent it from generating.
Once I thought about it, it is probably handy IF you leave the BB tracks as BB tracks. The first thing I always do when opening a BB song in RB is change all the BB tracks to regular tracks, then Save As a .seq file ... so my workflow has never needed this feature.
If I wanted to generate all the BB tracks repeatedly I'd do so in BiaB where it is faster, but once in RB I really like having more control over generating (and everything else), hence my workflow of changing the BB tracks to regular tracks right away.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Herb...that song is awesome....
I'm just getting around to reading all the suggestions. Greatly appreciated. I think I'm 95% ready to finish this one up.
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RHarv, thank you for your help. It's a journey, I'm sure. I'm probably less technically inclined that all you guys. The broad brushstroke suggestions are like gold. Mostly because I can understand them, sometimes. 
Last edited by CocoTex; 03/24/16 03:27 PM.
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller
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This must have been asked/covered before, but I don't find it.
I'm a songwriter, and solo folky-country-ish performer (I ain't all that, but I have a good time and have a small, twisted following). I'm new to BIAB, and I've started making arrangements for some existing songs, deconstructing and reconstructing. I've rarely played with an accompanist, if so usually just a harmonica or bass, let alone a whole band, and this is giving me a great opportunity to see what the songs might be if enhanced/supported by a band.
I don't need anything album quality, but I'd like the songs to be relatively mastered. I have one ready to go now. I could get a studio here to do it, but I thought I'd see if anyone here wanted to give it a shot. Trying to mix it is driving me insane. Many, many days. I'm probably too invested in the song and my voice, etc., to be able to see/hear it reasonably.
Original song, lyric heavy, story, 7 piece band and my vocal.
If anyone is interested, shout.
Either way, thanks for your time. This whole experience has completely changed me and my understanding of music.
Andy
CocoTex Don't pull out all your hair. In BIAB with a full drum set, Kick, Snare, Toms, Open Hi Hat, Crash and ride, and possibly a Closed Hi Hat, all recorded in stereo with at least 4 variations and 7 instruments mixed with your vocal that's a lot of sound. I would choke on mixing it down without a CONTROL SURFACE (something to control multiple channels and sub mixes at the same time), and automate the mix within your DAW. But, I don't do it that way, I do the following. I strip out 4 of those 7 instruments and get the song rock soliid. Just use the Drums, Bass, Keys or guitar tracks. Set the levels of those instruments. Render those 3 tracks down to a stereo file (mute the other 4 instrument tracks before you render this mix) Listen and sing along to see if you have solved your level problems with those 3 tracks. If you have not solve the problems with those 3 tracks remix and render a new version to sing over. Repeat this procedure until you have a three piece stereo mix that you like to sing with. Now record your vocals with these three tracks leave the other channels muted. Now, you can add (unmute)one instrument track at a time. You have simplified your solution to leveling problems because you can ride one channel while listening to the mix, all the way through the song. I usually find that after one or two passes I can set a volume and leave it there. Remember you can also PAN an instrument to the left or right to move it away from the lead vocal. + -15 to 20 is usually sufficient. In some cases as little as + -5 will do the trick. I always produce a 4 track version of my original songs, Drums, Bass, Rhythm Guitar, or Rhythm Keys, and the lead Vocals. I do not wait until I finish the complete arrangement. After listening to this 4 track arrangement my production could take a whole different direction. (Especially if I record background Vocals. But, that is a different topic all together.) I am a singer/songwriter too and those 3 piece backing band versions of my songs rendered .wav files allows me to play my guitar and sing with that track, and have other musicians join in. Hope that helped. Good Luck mixing.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Wow, it has been interesting reading the different methods. I go about the mix completely different. Once I get all the tracks just like I like them, including the vocal, I do a Merge Audio and VSTi/DXi Tracks to Stereo Wave file of all tracks. This then gives me a single Wave file track, which becomes my Master. I mix the master, always leaving the Seq file raw, as is. I mix using the PG Music plugins which are marvelous. You just have to play around with them to see what you like and what matches your voice, style of music, etc.
I am generally pleased with the overall finished production sound, but after reading these posts I'm thinking I'm doing something wrong. What am I missing?
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I am generally pleased with the overall finished production sound, but after reading these posts I'm thinking I'm doing something wrong. What am I missing? It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong. There's one rule of music: if it sounds good, it is good. All these tools and procedures are a means to an end. If you're happy with your results, there's no need to change anything you're doing.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Carolyne, I agree with David
I don't ever see that you are doing anything wrong. The technique you are using is apparently working very well. Your material is always first class. You just use a different approach. And that's obviously perfectly OK.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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There's one rule of music: if it sounds good, it is good.
Yup... it doesn't matter how you get there. There are many paths you can go by.... If someone listens and says.... "Wow, that's good"... you have done your job.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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