I'm working with a typical downloaded midi file in RB. The file plays perfectly but I want to add EQ to a track. No problem, right? I click on the little down arrow to the left of the track name, it expands that window, I insert the PG 10 band EQ and make changes. Great.
It's affecting the whole song. Yes, each track is on a different midi channel. So, I tried two other midi files and it's the same, any plugin is not limited to that one track only it's global.
The file had some sysex on track one so I removed that track then my other attempt at a fix was to reinstall the latest update, reopen and try again but no change.
What's happening is you are applying the Audio FX to the output of the (likely) Default DXi Synth.
In RB when you apply FX on a Track that uses the default synth, it applies to the whole synth. Therefore it affects all tracks. Remember; Audio FX like '10 band EQ' must be applied AFTER the MIDI is converted to Audio (and because most soft synths output audio for all MIDI channels as a single stereo signal, they are all affected).
How to fix: Remove the current 10 band EQ plugin so it is no longer applied to the default synth output. Go to the track that you want to apply the (isolated) 10 band EQ to
Right-Click that track and select Port; assign it to it's own MIDI Port (there are 16 available), then assign another instance of the same synth to that Port ..
Now you can apply FX to that isolated instance of the synth without affecting the other tracks.
Hope that makes sense .. Essentially you'll have one instance of the synth running the selected track with FX, and another instance running the rest of the tracks without the FX.
If RB behaved the other way (where each MIDI channel could have audio effects applied like how you described) it would require a separate instance of the synth for every MIDI track, which is much less efficient on the computer. Every SGU opened in RB would require 8 synths .. which would also be much more confusing for most users.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Thanks, rharv that makes perfect sense. The last time I did live recording using RB with other midi and audio tracks was 4 or 5 years ago and I think it was mostly audio with a few midi tracks so I probably never ran into this issue.
My sister has been visiting me all weekend and I just dropped her off at the boat terminal for her trip back to Catalina. She's a really good singer who's won several karaoke contests and we decided to lay down some vocals so I haven't had a chance to test this yet but I'm sure the default synth is the problem.
Here's two things I may as well ask here. Same midi file.
1. The vocal came in very low which I'm used to because I didn't have a limiter on the input.
For now I'm using the Forte DXi as the default (I'll probably be using ST3 later) and the midi tracks were really overpowering the vocals to the point that even after I did a gain change on the vocal track up to about a +3 or so with the peak limit on, it was still low so I copied it to a second track in order to boost the volume so she can hear it for now.
Any way to simply turn down the overall volume of the default synth? Subgroups only work on audio, not midi and using the mixer or volume sliders doesn't work because the midi file is full of volume changes which are actually good, the file has decent built in dynamics. I know I can strip all that out and use the nodes for the final mix but I like how this midi file was put together, it's really well done.
2. This question concerns the drum track. The Forte plays it fine, it just sounds like crap. I put ST3 on the drum track and selected several kits to test and every one of them did not play the drum track properly. I just listened to it now and what's happening is ST is only playing a third to a half of the midi drum notes, the rest are simply dropped for a bar then they play, then dropped, then play. I switch back to the Forte and they play all the time like they should.
Here's where I think the problem is, in the piano roll the drum notes are tiny little things like 32nd or even 64th notes but the velocity bars all look good. Is it possible that they're too small for ST to detect all the time? This is weird, never seen this before.
I don't want to have to create this track from scratch and it's a song specific drum track, none of the RD's fit the song.
I'm well aware of the issues with downloaded midi files, I found sysex on track 1 so I removed all that but the other instrument tracks only have the usual program and volume changes which seem to be GM mapped.
even after I did a gain change on the vocal track up to about a +3 or so with the peak limit on, it was still low so I copied it to a second track in order to boost the volume so she can hear it for now.
If this was done in the Gain Change effect (like you said) you simply boosted it by +3 and the Peak Limit probably did very little.
I'd suggest actually running the PeakLimit on the vocal track in real time (instead of the Edit hard write FX like the Gain Change). Get PGPeakLimit set to where you like it using realtime FX .. then if you really want to go ahead and hard write it do so using the Edit PGPeakLimit effect. Simply use the Save Preset option while using the real time version, then open that same preset in the Edit hard write area ..
They are separate; using realtime FX allows getting the settings just how you want, then if you want to save resources and hard write it to another track you can do so by using the Edit-PGFX path ... I often prefer actually using the PGPeakLimit plugin vs the Gain Change (with Peak Limit enabled). YMMV
FWIW, I find using the PGMusic plugins as being very efficient. Running 20+ instances of these does not cause issues here, so the need to hard write it is pretty rare.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
First issue: levels. You need to get the levels up into the input rather than trying to fix it later. The old saying that you can "fix it in the mix" is simply not the way to do this.
Rather than trying to turn the vocals up.... perhaps turn the other things down. You should be able to control the volume at every stage of the process in a good DAW.
My question on this is: What does the vocal track look like as a printed wave? How does it compare visually to the printed synth track? Is the vocal track full in proportion to the track area or is it a thin line and weak looking?
In the photo below, the bottom orange track is a full (percentage wise) track. If the input level isn't right , the wave can look like a very thin blob or even a straight line. You don't want that.
I've had skinny looking waves in the past that were anemic. It's a matter of getting the correct levels into the software. None of the waves in the photo are that way... but imagine the space taken up by the several grey tracks above the orange vocal track being just one mono track, and then just one of the skinny blue stereo channels smack dab in the center. I've seen and had waves that were that weak. Sure, you can use amplify, increase by +6dB and process that several times to get the blob up to a good size, but that's the wrong way to do it. You are essentially trying to create data that doesn't exist and that's not a good solution for a good mix in the end.
If, on the other hand, you are getting good levels and have solid looking waves that sound good when soloed, the other option is to turn down the rest of the band in the mix as opposed to trying to boost the vocals. More than one time, I have had to do that very thing. Vox sounded good, band sounded good but there was no realistic way to get the vocals up on top without going into the red, using compression and limiters to the max. So I created a new sub-buss and added all the instruments to it. That allowed me to keep the automation for the tracks in place... no adjustments needed, and I simply pull the fader on the sub-buss to the level I need for the vocals to set on top. In the end.... after I do my polishing and "mastering".... no one is able to tell how I did the mixing. The result is a good sounding mix with the vox in the right place.
Dropped midi notes: Buffers and latency settings as well as using the correct driver for the sound card and hopefully, a decent ASIO based interface. If you are experiencing dropped midi notes, it is usually one of those things, or settings not set properly.
As you run more process heavy plugs and VST's, the computer has a harder time processing the midi into audio and getting it to the speakers in real time. When it can't do that due to a lack of processing power, or being very busy, it has only a few options. It can drop some notes to keep up, or it can in some cases stop. I've had it do both on other computers.
Remember the episode of I Love Lucy where she was working the assembly line in the chocolate factory? Same thing happens in the DAW....
See what the total processor load is. Most DAW's have a processing power meter somewhere so you can see how hard the computer is working. If it's up to 60% or higher.... you might want to start using some work arounds. If the processor is running "cool" at 10% to 20%, you have settings issues. No computer DAW should be choking on midi at under 50% processor load.
First thing... try increasing the midi & audio buffers a bit. Just go a little bit at a time. Smaller buffers are best, because they make for a lean, fast machine. But reality is that sometimes you have to increase them a bit. Too little causes issues, too big causes other issues so you want to be in the middle where things are working right.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/15/1603:00 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Rather than trying to turn the vocals up.... perhaps turn the other things down. You should be able to control the volume at every stage of the process in a good DAW.
Thanks for the reply Herb. This is what I was asking about, how to do that. Remember this is a midi file and I'm simply working with the Forte DXi for now. I have ST3 and several hardware synths I can use for the midi tracks. Due to time constraints all I was doing was capturing her vocals. The midi tracks can all be changed later which is why I didn't bother rendering them to audio at this point. If I had known I would be having this problem I could have rearranged the space to hook up one of my keyboards for midi and simply turn down the master volume on the keyboard itself but with the Forte softsynth, where's the master volume? I don't know about other DAW's but RB only allows you to sub audio tracks, not midi ones.
As far as recording the vocals hotter to start with, she's a very powerful singer and these tunes are power ballads, the dynamic range of her voice is quite large which is why I had to keep the input trimmed low.
You know how you think you have something ready and then find out it's not? I'm using a new Win 10 system and I've been using my Sonic Cell as the audio interface for at least 5 years but had not set it up yet. Guess what? The Win 8.1 64 bit driver will not work with Win 10 and Roland has said there are no more updates. Nice. Another $500 piece of kit out the window. I've read about some hacks that supposedly work but I had no time for that.
I had to run over to Sam Ash while she was eating lunch and I picked up a Steinberg UR22 MkII interface and I'm using that ASIO driver which loaded up and works fine. I will say at first blush it's impressive. The physical case is very solid and heavy, it simply plugged in and it works.
You're thinking that the drum track midi notes being so tiny doesn't matter? I have no idea about that it's just out of all the dozens (hundreds?) of midi drum tracks I've seen I've never seen this before. I mean those drum midi notes are literally tiny little fly specks. My mouse's resolution isn't fine enough to even capture one.
You're comment about buffer settings is a good one. I have it set at a relative mild 256 samples, I can easily try a higher setting to test that.
In the Prefs - MIDI Devices area is a Trim Adjustment for the default synth that may help with the Forte overall volume .. -24 to 24 is the available range
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Most of the ones I use do also, and yes there is the track volume, but he is using the synth on multiple tracks so each would have to be adjusted.
On Forte you can right-click on the display and select EQ and Volume to make this adjustment .. but it's about the same as using the Trim in the previous step. Not very elegant.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Most of the ones I use do also, and yes there is the track volume, but he is using the synth on multiple tracks so each would have to be adjusted. On Forte you can right-click on the display and select EQ and Volume .. but it's about the same as using the Trim in the previous step.
It's been a while (several years) since I used a multi channel synth since I now work almost exclusively with audio tracks. TTS is the one I have.
As I recall, (IIRC) TTS not only has a master synth volume, but it also has channel volume for each of the 16 channels and then there is still the host DAW track volume controls, buss volume and master volume. That's up to 5 volume controls that let you do what you need regarding the levels of the various tracks and channels.
This is where it's really helpful to have a good DAW that allows easy drawing of volume envelopes. No matter what the levels are coming out of the synth and (within reason of course) before the track channels in the DAW, the track volume is the determining factor in the volume you hear.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/18/1603:14 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Well, it's been a month and I still have the same problem, this time trying to get a monitor mix. My sister visited me again this weekend.
I was not getting any vocal in the cans until I realized that it was because the vocals were so low the music was completely overpowering them. I thought I was having a problem with my config but then I solo'd the vox and I could just barely hear them so I was getting monitoring it just was so low as to be totally unusable.
This time I was using all Real Tracks. I created the song first in Biab then opened it in RB. The RT's all came into RB as good solid waveforms just like you're screenshot Herb. Since I only had 5 RT's I did use the sliders to take them down to around -20 or so and had the vox track maxed out. What happened then was the headphone output from the UR22 was so low that she could barely hear anything and this is with the headphone volume pot maxed out. So then I broke out my 15 year old mixer I hadn't used in years, took the audio outs into that along with the phones and boosted the output. Finally I had a strong monitor mix.
What is the deal here? I'm dealing with someone with a big vocal range. Her softer sections show on the meter as around -15 to -20 or so while her strong sections are between -6 to -3. That paints a waveform on the track that's overall puny. As a test I had to do a gain change of 9 or 10 to get it to look like the bass or guitar RT's.
Part of this could be the mic I guess. I'm using a Shure AXS 1 which sounds great, it's a dynamic mic that to me sounds cleaner than the venerable SM58. Maybe it's not sensitive enough to produce a strong signal when she's singing softly? Is there not a way to have RB internally boost an input that's being recorded in real time without clipping? I don't mean compression I mean a simple gain boost. As I said I could easily use 7 or 8db of boost and not clip so why does RB record it so low?
Is there not a way to have RB internally boost an input that's being recorded in real time without clipping?
PGPeakLimit, used in the IM slot and then enabling 'Record InputMonitoring' would allow boosting it with a brick wall peak limiter of -0.25db while recording if that helps.
Not sure why a compressor puts you off. They are used quite often on vocals for the very reason of getting them upfront and intimate.
I prefer to add it after recording but that's just me.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
I prefer to add it after recording but that's just me.
Me too. I use compressors and limiters all the time after the fact.
I tried to find some info on this in Help but again, what are the search words to use if you're not familiar with Input Monitoring? Those two words don't sound like my question. I tried Input Gain, Increase Input Levels and others and nothing came up. I went to the Audio window and saw Input Monitoring and then looked it up and you're right of course. Just another issue with the Help files I keep harping about.
My problem is even though I've done tons of live remote recording including using 3 or 4 mics on a drum kit as a subgroup and having several vocalists, this was using my now dead Akai DPS 16 HD recorder. Never had a problem with either clipping or weak tracks. When I moved those tracks into Audition, the vocals were hot enough. I'm not experienced with live DAW recording, only after the fact mixing.
Are you saying this is normal with RB? I set the input level to where the peaks on the meter are maxing out at -5 maybe yet the track itself is that low relative to the Biab instrument tracks?
No energy in the vocal tracks comparatively (at least that's how I justify it in my mind).
You have a raw Mic track .. usually these need help compared to pre-recorded or RTs.
Unless you push it through the signal chain in the first place.
Mac wrote a good article on gain staging years ago that helps with getting the best signal .. http://audiominds.com/gain.html
/Thanks to Don for keeping this info alive for so long //thanks to Mac for writing a lot of it in the first place /// You must be audio minds! //// (4 slashies!) This is old school basic info but still applies; learned a lot on this site and forum back in the day
Last edited by rharv; 12/19/1603:15 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
In RB I clicked on Help inside the Dynamics window and there is a really good explanation of how compressors and limiters work. Part of that mentioned untrained vocalists who do not use proper mic technique while recording which causes exactly what I just described.
Basically what I did is the only thing to do after the fact. I did insert a compressor to bump it up and also used the Node function as well as lowering the other instrument tracks.
As far as getting a good monitor mix the only way is what Rharv said, insert the compressor using the IM function or do what I did which was to drastically lower the instrument tracks and then run the audio to an external mixer to increase the headphone output.
This is a good discussion that shows just how tricky this stuff can be.
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