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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 120
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 120 |
Can someone please explain the decibel scale as it relates to the vu-meters and sliders? I've been operating by guess and by golly and don't really understand it. Why do the scales include -(minus values) and how are they different from positive values? Why is the zero value on the far right (or top) of the scale? Any help with this would be appreciated as I haven't been able to find anything online that explains it in terms of recording technology.
Music is what feelings sound like.
Windows 11, Behringer UMC204HD Audio Interface, BIAB/RB 2022 Ultra Pak Plus
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Oct 2008
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John, The decibel scale is a relative scale. It's a comparison of how loud a sound is perceived to be when referenced against what's called the average threshhold of human hearing (that is, the softest sound the average person can hear). When the decibel value is calculated this threshhold is -120 dB. - If you are interested, the calculation is...
dB = 10Log(10^(-12)) where 10^(-12) is the sound intensity.
Using this threshhold reference, the range of the majority of sounds in our environment go from -120 to 0 dB. This is where the -ve scale is derived from. Below the threshhold of hearing (less than -120 dB) is often called -inf (for 'infinity') on a mixer. This is because below -120 dB is outside our hearing ability. Because the dB scale is about comparisons, ultimately it's only the RANGE of the values that matter. From the above, since the values are from -120 dB to 0 dB, this gives a range of 120 dB from the very softest sound to the loudest sound. If the negative scale is bothersome, then this RANGE of 120 dB can be represented by many alternatives; it all depends on what value a person assigns to the threshhold of hearing... - 0 dB (hearing threshhold) to 120 dB (loudest): the range is still 120 dB
- -60 dB to +60 dB (range 120 dB)
- -10 dB to +110 dB (range 120 db), etc.
Another important aspect of the dB scale is that if the dB value is doubled, this does not correspond to a doubling in volume. This is why it doesn't matter what the starting place of the scale is. All that matters is that from the low end to the high end is a range of 120 dB. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Mar 2004
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The zero, the + sign and the - sign relate to what we call "Unity Gain". This comes from the analog mixer days, so to speak but is also related to electrical engineering standards that we don't care to know too much about for the sake of understanding what it means on the Volume Unit meter.
Basically the "0" on the fader is unity gain. Unity Gain means that there is "essentially or relatively speaking" no increase or decrease to the signal as it passes through the faders' gain altering electrical components. You can think of each fader on a mixer console as mini amplifiers. A given signal level in the circuit before the fader with the fader at "0" would give you no change in the signal level. Raising and lowering the fader simply amplifies or attenuates the signal level. The + numbers and - numbers are more for reference. I think the term "decibel" is used loosely in this context because the actual decibel change is relative to sound pressure, air movement, loudness and how the human ear typically perceives volume and loudness. Decibel is a relative measurement the same way inches, feet or miles are. If I ask you the place my desk at 6 inches you will want to know where to begin measuring from and might assume I mean 6 inches from the wall. If I tell you a gas station is 3 miles down the road you are automatically using a reference point from the location where we are holding the discussion.
If you tell me to turn up the music to 80 db I am making an assumption that our starting point is at the lowest level that we can perceive in the current room we are in. I don't really measure the audible sound in the room. I make assumtions or use a Sound Pressure Level meter. But, I already know that 80 db is typically the level of a 2 person conversation. Not very loud, but comfortable.
Decibels, for example; a 6 db increase is commonly perceived as twice as loud as what ever the current decibel level is. We use a Sound Pressure Level meter that puts numbers on the sound pressure so we can compare and evaluate it. The music is playing at around 85 db as read on a SPL meter at the front row of an empty auditorium. We might suggest leaving enough room on the fader so that we can raise it 6 to 10 db. So, if the fader is at zero we lower the fader - 10 db (referenced on the fader) and turn up the main amplifiers to bring the music back to 85 db. When the audience shows up we've got plenty of lee-way on the console without messing with the amps.
Anyway, that's a quick analog analogy.
The software DAW is borrowing common thread themes from the hardware days. In recording and mixing in a software DAW we use the VU meter and the faders' db scale as a quick and easy reference. I know that if I have 2 - 3 guitar tracks with the faders at zero and my main output VU meter is already hitting zero also then as I record more instrument tracks my main VU meter goes red (clips) and the sound is distorted. With some experience I have learned to start out with my faders a bit lower depending on how many tracks I intend to record and mix. The VU meter and the numbers on it are there to give me a visual to relate to.
Well, I'm a bit tired so I hope this helps you understand a little more.
Last edited by Tobias; 01/14/17 08:02 PM.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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As NOEL96 said; 0 dB (hearing threshold) to 120 dB (loudest): the range is still 120 dB
I think most musical instrument and audio equipment manufactures are starting to use 0 db as the very threshold of quietness that most people can no longer hear a particular sound. 1 db is the first and quietest perceived sound level. If we use that as the starting pint to measure from then 120 db is the threshold of pain. Where most people will experience pain in the ears.
I typed "decibel comparison chart" in a google search and got many pictures of db charts. The ones I saw start at 0 being the quietest a person can hear.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Noel you got it almost right. Threshold of hearing at the quietest end is roughly 20 micropascals. That's the reference which results in 0 dB. This is from a human hearing use of dB, whereas our VU meters are not referencing human hearing but voltage. Both uses employ dB because of the convenience of relating numbers across many orders of magnitude down to just a few orders of magnitude. VU use of dB has negative numbers in most of the range because the reference unit used is on the highest end of the scale rather than the lowest.
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Keep it out of the red. That's my rule with meters.
Seems to work well.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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John F, did the info given help you get a better understanding? I don't think it's something to get too hung up on. You said you didn't find good info on line. If you will look up the topic "setting gain stage" or "proper gain structure" you'll get a good idea of what these were originally designed for. A lot of it will relate to noise levels in your recordings. But, with the high quality of equipment components these days we are far less concerned about noise floor levels as we used to be. And, although getting a high VU reading level at the input while recording a track can be important that's not always a super high concern either as long as you are getting a high enough level to be able to mix the track with the other tracks without having to use plugins to boost it up. And, also high enough that you are not losing the quieter dynamics of a vocal or instrument but dropping off the input VU meter. And, of course, maxing out into the red on a digital recording is a bad thing.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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