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#433370 10/14/17 05:31 AM
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One of my favorite steady gigs is playing in a local upscale retirement community cocktail lounge. I play the old Cole Porter, George Gershwin, Irving Berlin jazz standards. The residents, mostly in their 80s and 90s love them as much as I love playing them. They grew up with these songs. Unfortunately these fine folk will be gone before too much longer and so will the appreciation of the Great American Songbook.
The next generation want to hear “Classic Rock”, which is OK but a big step down both musically and lyrically in my opinion. Then what?
Modern pop music isn’t composed and then recorded as an ensemble, it’s “produced”. (“Attached is the hook for your new hit, Rihanna. Please send us your recorded vocal by return email.”) As a result, the songs all sound then same. (I don’t include rap in this category as I don’t consider it music at all.)
Classical music is on life support. City orchestras are reduced to trying to attract younger audiences by playing Led Zeppelin. Really?
The same thing is happening in churches. The most popular ones feature a rock band playing “praise” music, which is OK if you like that kind of thing but it ain’t Bach or Handel. (There is some good new spiritual music being composed which I enjoy playing in church, along with gospel, but it’s in the minority.)
All of which brings me to worry about the future of good music. Does it even have one?


Cheers! -Alastair
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Originally Posted By: AlastairLC
They grew up with these songs.

You nailed it right there.


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Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
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All generational. Both in the content of the music and the way it is made. Those who sneer at computers and Pro Tools because "Why, when I was a kid...." likely still write letters, pay bills with checks and have rotary dial phones.

Times change. People should too.

So, "good" is relative. You can choose to listen or not. I choose not, but not because of any old man "and stay off my lawn" stuff. I have just lost my interest in music. I don't even like going into grocery stores where music is playing in the background. The last time I did I got a case of Taylor Swift poisoning.

Video killed the radio star.

Last edited by eddie1261; 10/14/17 01:16 PM.
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There is a lot of good music being recorded today. The problem is finding it. I listen to a local jazz station that plays old and new jazz and some of these new guys can really play.

If you search the Internet there is great county, Americana, blues, jazz, etc being recorded. The problem is you have to go through a lot of crap prior to finding the good stuff. I like Amazon Prime because it has a lot of good music IF you pick the right genre.

I'm also impressed with some of those young children that are on You Tube. Some of those kids can really play.

I am not worried about music's future.


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I cannot listen to the old stuff like Cole Porter, George Gershwin, Irving Berlin, etc. I understand they probably played a critical role in getting us where we are but then again so did Beethoven and I don't listen to his stuff either! laugh

Like many people I have a strong preference for what I grew up with so The Beatles and Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd get played a lot as does Bob Dylan, John Prine and Paul Simon. There are lots of others of course.

But, I also LOVE a lot of the new music. I really love Sia's Chandelier and Lorde's Royals, both terrific pop songs in my opinion. I enjoyed Wrecking Ball by Miley Cyrus. And quite a bit of the new music excites me! (I even like a recent Eminem freestyle rap but for different reasons!)

I agree with Eddie about music being generational. I like my music better than my dad's music and better than my kids' music. But I understand that doesn't make my music better (or worse) than theirs!

Also, unlike some folks, I have absolutely no problem with automation or production improvements or voice effects or guitar pedals or synths (or Band-in-a-Box) being used to produce something new and interesting! It doesn't matter to me whether Rihanna sang in a studio or recorded her vocals and emailed them! All I care about is the final product. At the same time I understand how some people remember fondly the "good old days" when the whole band recorded together in the studio; that certainly required some skills! But just like horse & buggy we have moved on!

So, to answer the question "Is Good Music Dying Away?"...Nope!

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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


I agree with Eddie about music being generational.



Wait... what...? We agree on something??? LOL!!

I think the perspective here is in the question more than the answer.

Is the good TO YOU music dying away?

My tastes were always toward the strong vocal groups and the songwriters. I love The 4 Freshman, The Beach Boys and the 4 Seasons because they were such amazing singing groups. I really dig the older school writers like Cole Porter and George Gershwin, but that was my father's music. My fascination with writing started with The Beatles and the Beach Boys. That led into my fascination with production. When you think about the now somewhat primitive equipment that Rubber Soul, Sgt Pepper and Pet Sounds were made on, it boggles the mind that they pulled it off. Now with unlimited tracks on Pro Tools.... you record one verse, one bridge, one chorus and then copy and paste it together.

These days, the production is slick, slicker than ever in fact, but for my taste the substance is not there. When music became more visual with the dawn of MTV, (Video Killed the Radio Star) the focus became more on what people SEE. I doubt we'll see another "God Only Knows" or another "Warmth of the Sun" or "Good Vibrations" or "Fool on the Hill" and so forth. That's not the end game of songwriting anymore. But to someone who liked Black Eyed Peas, "I Got A Feeling" is a classic.

So yeah, the good TO ME music is gone. I recently got Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin, and to me it is magic. Brian is like 76 now and still has that "arranger ear". He weaved Rhapsody in Blue in and out of those songs like he was creating a musical serape. I like some groups like Imagine Dragons, Bon Iver and a few others, but the mainstream stuff does not thrill or interest me. I take note that festivals like Lollapalooza, all the newer, younger acts play during the day, but at night? Red Hot Chili Peppers, etc....

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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


I agree with Eddie about music being generational.



Wait... what...? We agree on something??? LOL!!

Yep! smile But I bet we don't agree on Eminem's latest rap! laugh

Damn it, I gotta agree with you again about Brian Wilson, The Beatles and others of that era. What they accomplished with primitive tools has never been exceeded in my opinion. But there are lots of things like that in my life.

For example, when I was a kid canned biscuits were truly not as good as what Mom made but nowadays they are easily as good or better! Same thing for guitars...when I was a kid the only thing I could afford was a trash guitar from Sears and nowadays I can get a Chinese instrument that sounds and plays as good as almost anything on the market! Cars are another example...when I was a kid a cheap car was truly a junker with guaranteed problems but nowadays I can buy a cheap car and it runs and lasts better than my dad's old Caddy did!

And so it is with music. As new tools come out producers use them as shortcuts but as the tools get better and the users get more experienced I feel the music gets even better. I remain very excited about where music is today and where it is going. Too bad I cannot seem to write anything but 70s rock and country styles!

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This is a very interesting concept.
https://www.vox.com/videos/2017/10/13/16469744/repetition-in-music

I think we have to accept the musical world as it is rather than as we wish it would be if we want to stay relevant. What will blockchain do for communal music making on the internet for example? I have no idea, but I reckon it could be very interesting and democratic. grin

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I hope we’re not limited in our musical tastes by our own generation. Mozart has lasted over 200 years; Cole Porter for 80. (How long will Rihanna last?)
Sure, I prefer the Beatles and The Beach Boys to Frank Sinatra or Madonna, but I certainly didn’t grow up with The Great American Songbook playing on the Victoria, and I sure love it now. Even allowing for generational bias, I can’t see modern music ending up anywhere but on the waste dump of music history.


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Originally Posted By: AlastairLC
............... Even allowing for generational bias, I can’t see modern music ending up anywhere but on the waste dump of music history.


I'll bet that is the same thing our parents and grand parents said wink


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I remember when I was young, 9 or 10, and my parents listened to Glenn Miller, both Dorsey Brothers, Benny Goodman..... and being Slovenian, our ethnic variation was polka and waltz. So like a lot of Slovenian kids, my first instrument was accordion. When I turned 11, the long haired guys from England were starting to become the buzz, and I wanted a guitar. Now remember, we are talking parents here, and they though guitar meant Chet Atkins and Les Paul type music. They even went as far as liking The Ventures when they heard my Ventures album had Perfidia on it (note Glenn Miller above). They had no idea my goal was wanting to be The Beatles or The Beach Boys. And like everybody in my generation, I had to hear that "How can you listen to that garbage" stuff.

Just like I say now....

And stay off my lawn.

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Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: AlastairLC
............... Even allowing for generational bias, I can’t see modern music ending up anywhere but on the waste dump of music history.


I'll bet that is the same thing our parents and grand parents said wink


Yes, and they were right about a lot of it. (“96 Tears” by The Mysterians anybody?).

Last edited by AlastairLC; 10/15/17 04:58 AM.

Cheers! -Alastair
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Alastair,

If you want some proof that good music isn't dead, then take some time and check out what is broadly labled as "bluegrass" today and you'll find that good music is alive and well.

Not only are there world class musicians of all ages playing new original music, but the songs of the past are treated to new arrangements and include many genre's.

A good place to start would be someplace like this:

http://www.thebluegrasssituation.com/

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Originally Posted By: AlastairLC
I hope we’re not limited in our musical tastes by our own generation. Mozart has lasted over 200 years; Cole Porter for 80.


Very true but when was Mozart last played live in a bawdy house or nightclub? Back in the day he was just another performer looking for a gig. All classic music whether it be modern classics or classiCAL music from 200 years ago eventually stops being performed in common places and is only played on special occasions in concert to a select crowd. Jazz is already heading that way and classic rock from the 60's-70's will soon follow.

Eddie nailed and so have I every time this subject comes which is quite often around here. It's purely generational.

My favorite example is the Roaring 20's flapper music like stride piano, the Charleston dancing and all that. I'm fairly sure without actually knowing your background that you didn't care for that stuff when you heard your grandmother talking about it or playing it at her house when you visited them. The old folks from that era hated the big bands. It sounds unbelievable now but it's true. I remember my grandfather talking about it. He loved music in his day but he was a WW1 Marine born in 1897. His musical era in Detroit was the 20's and he couldn't stand Glen Miller or Benny Goodman much less Ellington and my grandmother was an original Flapper. She had a dance studio and taught the Charleston.

Everybody thinks their tastes don't stink while everybody else's does.

You know how all of us can go into great detail about this band or that band from 40 years ago? How they changed when so and so left or died? This album had that drummer and that one a different drummer and what a difference it made? I could go on and on with examples of that. Well, I'm a big Lakers fan and I listen to sports talk radio a lot here in LA. The jocks are all younger guys in their mid 30's. They make musical references all the time because part of their talk includes all the stars who showed up at the games last night.

They're all artists you, I and about 90% of this forum have never heard of yet it's obvious they're huge in the industry. The sports jocks will talk about their latest records in exactly the same way we used to. They talk about how he or she changed their rap style from what they did 5 years ago and what a huge difference the new producer made, they know all about it, all the littlest details just like we did with "our" artists. You really want to feel old? Listen to young people talk about their music and all the artists. I don't mean simply tuning them out, I mean really listen. Talk about feeling like the proverbial fifth wheel. All I can do is wait for that to finish and get back to talking about one of the Lakers players or the next game or whatever.

Which part of modern music is going to last, what will be played in special concerts 50 years from now? I don't have a clue, none of us will be around to see it anyway so who cares? I know one thing, I have faith in Western civilization and all of us in general. They'll figure it out and be happy about it.

Bob


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This is why I have XM radio because I find new stuff that the traditional FM stations won't play (I also love the comedies stations). Yes there will always be great music but the music industry won't help you find it, you will need to find it yourself. If you like jazz look into this.

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Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
what is broadly labeled as "bluegrass" today


I am quite curious if you listen to ANYTHING else, Bob. Every thread, every post, you bring up bluegrass. And with you being from West Virginia, I understand that you probably had exposure to bluegrass more than any genre in your life. But does that translate to Mexico, where they grow up on Mariachi and Tejano, or Cuba where they grow up on Mambo and Rumba, or the Dominican where they revere Bachata, or the Caribbean in general where they grow up on Bolero and Merengue?

This is kind of exactly what this thread is addressing. What is good TO YOU music. I appreciate the talent of bluegrass players (Andy Leftwich is off the chain!) but I am not huge on the genre as a whole. Why? In Cleveland where I grew up, we had no place to hear "hillbilly music". Cleveland was largely rock and soul in my formative years, and big band before that. There was a time that you couldn't have dragged me to a country music concert with handcuffs and a blindfold. Now I love country. I grew. I changed. Now I should qualify that to add that I still don't like that old cryin' in your beer country, but modern country, "pop" country, is a bunch of well crafted songs played by top caliber musicians.

So, as has been the primary takeaway from most people here, your "good" is not the same as everybody's "good", so to many, yes, it is dying away. I mean, there's not a lot of Latvian folk music coming out these days, and to a huge Latvian folk music fan, they would say yes, good music is dying away. The 20 somethings who like rap, and all those artists with some reference to cool or ice in their name, will eventually die and their genre will peter out when they do. Not a whole lot of surf music produced anymore, is there? I am sure Dick Dale fans are whining about that.

All relative.

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In the Eighties I remember one of my first records was Queen's
" A night at the opera" and I was listening to it , my Dad came in and told me I shouldn't be listening to this crap and it would be forgotten , why not listen to the Beatles because lots of people like them so they where better.
I think its impossible to get rid of talent, and there will always be those with it. They might not play what we like but music gods will always be around and follow their path.
As for Rihanna she might be great, or not, time will tell, as far as I know Tom Jones never wrote a song but 40 years later we all know him.
I suppose u can put Heavy Metal with Rap and most of the Electro music, its fiercely followed and loved by a few,dismissed by the majority. But to say musically there is nothing there, to me is putting your head in the sand.
Money and Greed will always be the motivator for the music business so a lot of stuff sold will be copies of what makes it, and even worse replays of bands 20-30 years old because the 40-50 have all the money. We all want to relive our childhood.

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The debate over what makes art (be it music, painting, literature,...) great has been going on for a long time. In recent decades, those who argue that it's relative have been winning the debate.
I don’t tend to agree. I side with those who posit that the ultimate test of greatness is whether it lasts. That is, does it speak to more than one generation, in fact many generations.
On that basis, Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, Da Vinci's Mona Lisa, and Shakespeare’s Hamlet pass the test.
So far the Great American Songbook is holding its own. Will the Beatles do as well? Only time will tell.
My concern here is that good music may not get the chance. As long as there are museums and libraries (real or digital), visual and literary art will be viewed and read. I’m just not sure that music will continue to be evaluated on the same basis. I fear that future generations will never have heard of the Beatles, let alone Gershwin or Bach.


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Alastair

Been reading this and I mostly and very honestly agree with you. Yes, there are some (very little) good "modern" songs & artists but, on the whole I concur that the last handful of decades of music, is simply crap.

This goes well beyond the expected, then dismissed as, "generational difference of opinion."

Now I to go really dark:

There is, and has been since the ~20's, a non-linear corrosive and erosive growth in "relativism" across all Western thought, discourse, and "self actualization" areas. Including areas that one would think should always be immune to relativism such as: objective truth and objective science.

While the match touched the kindling in the 20's, it is WE Western "baby boomers" that have been the main source of fuel for this destructive fire - and we handed more fuel and matches to our children and their children and told them all fire is good! The Phoenix that finally arises from the ashes of a destroyed Western Civilization will not be good for human kind, at least on this planet. And I'm being UP BEAT!

Larry

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You know, until that post I had no idea what The Great American Songbook was. Honestly. I have never been in any kind of band or done a solo act that required those songs. I looked it up and saw the contents, and just from a quick scan I have had to learn probably a dozen of those songs to play at weddings and such, and have learned a dozen more just because they are some of my favorite standards(Embraceable You, I Got You Under My Skin....). And now I have ordered a copy. I do buy music from time to time when I don't feel like I want to invest time in listening back and forth to figure out complex chords or write out a chart. (Like God Only Knows level complex. Incredible piece of writing. MacArther Park as well. Bought those.)

Unfortunately none of us will be around to know if these songs fade in another 50 or 100 years. I wonder if future generations will append it to add new songs to those.

I remember playing some show for high school aged kids (I was only 35-ish myself then) and they had their table decorations with the quote "Wise men say only fools rush in, but I can't help falling in love with you." And the quote was attributed to Corey Hart!!! THAT was the version they knew, so that's who they thought wrote it. Similar circumstances once playing in the Motown band. 5 of us, and we all sang. We were in the dressing room warming up doing the 4 Seasons cover of I Got You Under My skin. There was some 22-ish kind of kid in there and he made the comment about how great the writing was in the 4 Seasons. All the band guys, who knew better, just kind of looked at each other. I looked at the kid, and in my perfect fake angry face and voice I asked "Have you ever heard of Cole Porter?" The kid said "No. Who does he play with?" And I did an exaggerated "Heh heh heh. Get out of my dressing room!" And he left as everybody laughed about it. Good times!

Point of those stories is that everybody knows what they know how they know it and don't bother to research it, and why would they of they aren't a music student? I knew somebody who went round and round with me saying that Cole Porter wrote My Funny Valentine. There comes a point where you just say "Okay. You want to be right? Then Porter wrote it."

My opinion is that I don't think the old masters like Bach, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Mozart, etc.... belong in that conversation. They are in their own elite group. They were to music what Henry Ford was to cars, where they did the heavy lifting and set the foundations and standards that we have all built upon since. The people who wrote the show music like what is in that book belong there. Porter, Arlen, Berlin, the Gershwins, Glenn Miller, Goodman etc... And this generation's book would include Lennon and McCartney, Elton John and Bernie Taupin, Diane Warren, Brian Wilson also belongs in that group... the hitmakers since 1950-ish. Funny thing about Brian Wilson is that his best work was NOT what people know when you say The Beach Boys.

Off to buy my book.

Edit: I now see that there are like 5 Great American Songbooks. So, one at a time, I will end up with all of them.

Last edited by eddie1261; 10/16/17 04:16 AM.
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We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!

We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!

If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!

Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!

We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!

If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!

Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins

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