|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,876
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,876 |
I would say commercial songwriting is obviously something that can be taught. Nashville and pop music rely heavily on a formulaic approach to hit writing and that can be taught. But there is incredible competition, the who-do-you-know factor and plain old luck involved in getting a great song anywhere near hit status. Finally, I was never impressed with Pattison's teaching & writing style. I feel he takes 20 minutes to cover what could be easily explained in 5 minutes. And I just get bored and annoyed listening to him. Maybe he is truly brilliant but I'll never have the patience to find out! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,944
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,944 |
Songwriting is not a skill, it's a talent. It is certainly a talent than can be improved upon - after 3 1/2 decades of writing for a living, I still try to write better songs, and I believe I improve constantly. But a certain amount of talent is a prerequisite to being any good at it.
Though I can see his point of view, I disagree with Roger... I think songwriting is both a skill & talent... And both can be improved upon... By writing... But each of us have our own approach to the craft... And hopefully we are having fun! Scott mentioned the FAWM challenge... There is also the 50/90 challenge http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/I urge you to go there & listen to some of the songs... Some are crap & some sound great (ear of the hearer I guess  )... The drawback for me is finding time to listen to the songs of others & make fairly quality comments... While still trying to concentrate on writing. Here it is easier to listen & comment because there are far fewer submissions... Well... there use to be !
Jim
†=☮&♥
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,977
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,977 |
As someone that is grateful for public domain songs so I can have something to record I have no skin in this game. I've enjoyed reading this thread because of the diverse views expressed as well as how civil the conversation has been.
Reading through the posts though one thought keeps coming to me. What if you mentally replace the word "teacher" with the word "coach". Does that change the meaning of any of the posts? Does it bring the two viewpoints closer together? Does this change the conversation any, if at all?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,390
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,390 |
Hi Jim,
I think that to some extent the notions of 'coach' and 'teacher' are interchangeable. I'm not sure that they are synonyms in all circumstances, though.
As a science teacher, when I use the word 'coach' to explain my actions, I am tutoring a person to follow a set of operations that achieve a predictable outcome and that outcome is unvarying. For example, I coach someone in how to multiply two-digit numbers or I coach someone in how division of fractions works.
On the other side of that coin, when I teach someone, I see myself as providing that person with a set of principles that are guided by knowledge and then giving them the freedom to use those principles and knowledge in ways that I have probably never thought of.
My way of thinking is that talented teaching involves elements of coaching as well as elements of facilitating learning. The 'talent' aspect for me relates to a skilled ability to make the complex understandable and, as a consequence, to inspire learners to seek knowledge, to develop skills beyond the classroom and to become their own coaches and teachers.
Thank you for such a thought-provoking question!
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
I don’t worship Pattison. I’ve taken the free Berklee songwriting course twice.
I’m clearly not a talented songwriter as I have no hit records to my credit.
But I do enjoy songwriting now more than ever. It’s a very satisfying leisure activity and turns on part of my brain that I don’t get to use in my normal job as an ejection seat test engineer. I make a pretty good living doing that. From all accounts that I have heard from professional songwriters, with only the very top 100 of them in the world, I make a way better living than they do. So maybe it’s a blessing I don’t have to do songwriting for a living.
I use several methods in my songs that I learned in Pat’s course; namely The Boxes and odd line counts in prechorus sections, and the whole concept of prosody. These are not things you learn in engineering school on any level.
Is he the only one that teaches those things? I have no idea.
But they are useful to me in this hobby for enjoyment and satisfaction, and for that, I’m quite thankful for his courses. I think this is probably the case for most people that take his courses. He has opened doors for many to enjoy something they perhaps didn’t know they could enjoy.
I think this is why you see the praise of him. Now, if you have no need to be taught anything about songwriting because it’s all just natural talent; and you make write hit records while you are eating breakfast, or while you are just walking down the street, well you would have no appreciation for someone who teaches others what you yourself have known from birth.
To everyone else, if you’ve not tried the tips in this article, but you want to add tools to your songwriting toolbox, it can’t hurt to try them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,381 |
I don't think "not having any hit records" disqualifies one from being a talented song-writer. There are too many other factors at play (and the recent "worse songs" threads give evidence to this) that are probably more important than the general artistic quality of a song.
Song-writing (either as a hobby or a profession/semi-profession) is sort of like "photography" to me. Some people prefer to snap-snap-snap and cull the results. Some people like to carefully frame and apply filters and do all the other photography skills/tricks. The former have enough "eye" to recognize the worth of individual photographs and may, over time, learn to produce a larger percentage of their work that become "keepers". The latter have enough eye to recognize the value of the skills/tricks they've learned, and seek to learn more.
I've seen hobbyist photographers who barely knew how to operate a point-and-shoot camera take more pleasing photographs after a few lessons. I have to believe the same can be true of "song-writers". As long as they have the "ear", the skill-sets can be taught. And sometimes what is taught has to be interpreted to meet the requirements of the song instead of reworking the song to meet the requirements of the skill-set. I think that at least sometimes works in engineering too.
I'll look into the video/series more as time allows. At the least, I'd like to know what a "Pre-chorus" is as I've seen it mentioned on this forum before and have no idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
A pre chorus occurs in the song right before the chorus as a build into the chorus. It often has its own rhyming scheme apart from the verses and chorus. Sometimes there’s no rhyme at all. Of course I can’t think of a single example off the top of my head!
Edit: Since U Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson has a big pre chorus build
Last edited by rockstar_not; 08/07/19 08:20 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 723
Journeyman
|
|
Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 723 |
Interesting reading the posts from Roger, Scott, Noel and others about a long debated topic is it talent or is it practice. This debate doesn't just rage in the music world it's also in the other arts. Do you have to have immense talent to be a great dancer or a great artist? Or maybe to be in the Olympics? I'm also a visual artist and spent most of the last couple months preparing for a solo art show, proud to say I sold 10 paintings and received really great feedback and positive comments on my paintings. I also did some poetry to accompany some of them. There was the time in art history of Leonardo Di Vinci and other great painters before the camera, that art was taught and apprentices worked with artists to perfect their technical skills. In the time of Di Vinci and Michelangelo art was an occupation and their works met a demand for realistic paintings. They learned to become great through themselves being an apprentice. Van Gogh in his day was sort of looked down on as maybe even slightly crazy and a troublemaker. He only sold (1) painting in his life. Van Gogh was not accepted into the academy as they thought he had no talent, but he painted daily and developed his own unique style. None of these artists were really that famous in their day only post modem when the rich and museums decided to promote them. After the camera was invented, a modern movement happened in Europe and then America when famous artists labeled themselves as "having gifts bestowed by God". No one had to teach them art, they were the chosen ones. Monet, Picasso, Kalinsky, Rothko, etc. They did impressionistic and abstract art. Art became about the feelings to be expressed. This continued into our last century and even today. When I went to art school, I had teachers who couldn't explain perspective. They didn't need to, as art was inspired magic if you had it and about feelings. If you wanted an exact replication take a photo. I am glad to see today there is a remergence of the "New Old Masters" teachings. Back to my point, what I've seen in art students and others learning art you need (2) things a teeny bit of talent and interest and the discipline to learn and practice. You will be amazed at how good you can become. Whether you are ever famous or not is a whole another thing and that is based on opportunity and luck, neither of which may cross ones path in this life. One can become better than someone who has a lot of talent but is lazy and does not put in the time and effort to develop that talent. IMO I believe that many students who couldn't achieve for Roger is because many people and especially young people believe that it is God given and should be easy if they have it, and they aren't willing to put in the elbow grease otherwise to get there. Talent will get you no where without the hard work. I also believe many teachers seeing students not try or fail, dismiss them quickly because they know they won't put in the effort (who could blame them), however someone with some talent will get encouraged and praised by the teacher and that is inspiring in itself and positively encourages the student to continue.
Also, as Roger explained it is possible to have some talent and self teach as it appears that he's done and because he practiced and kept at it to become a good songwriter. I remember one famous songwriter saying "People say great songs come from inspiration, thank God inspiration strikes every day at 9:00". Bottom line is that none of this is important if it's not bringing any happiness or joy in your life. If you're unhappy that you are never going to be famous or cut a top hit (largely controlled by the music industry) then you're only frustrating your life and being miserable. Remember life is short and great artists die like everyone else and they ain't taking nothing with them, chosen by God or not. You gotta have the love of it.
Last edited by Belladonna; 08/08/19 06:18 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 723
Journeyman
|
|
Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 723 |
Hey Rock_star, I also took the free songwriting class from Pat Pattison twice. I do use the boxes, length of lines, pre-chorus and prosody from his teachings. I also do the object and destination writing to come up with songs and imagery. I've only been writing for about 8 years but have written over 350 songs. I do FAWM and 50/90 although this year I have been quite busy with my other hobbies I do, art and dance. I read all the time about songwriting, I dissect good songs, belong to a local songwriter group. Try to write a lot whether inspired or not. I just signed up for a creative writing class for the Fall at our local college. I'm writing lyrics and songs for a second album of a local musician country and southern rock style. Last year I wrote 10 songs for a UK artist. I may never have a number one hit, but I consider myself a success and I have worked hard at it. I'm not the greatest, but I'm not the worst as most of us are somewhere in between. Don't let anyone tell you, you have no talent and that you will never be successful. Determine what success is to you. Keep on, keepin' on. Rock on!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,664
PG Music Staff
|
|
PG Music Staff
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,664 |
Cool find Rockstar_not! Definitely some invaluable exercises to try here. Thanks for sharing!
Cheers,
Joe
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,390
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,390 |
I'll look into the video/series more as time allows. At the least, I'd like to know what a "Pre-chorus" is as I've seen it mentioned on this forum before and have no idea. Hi Tangmo, Here's my 2 cents worth (just in case it's useful)... I look at prechoruses as transitional bridges. This is a idea that Pat Pattison once discussed at a seminar I went to and I find it the most productive way of working out how to fit them into a song. As a transitional bridge, a prechorus's purpose is to link the verse to the chorus. To this end, it often creates tension through an odd number of phrases or lyric line length or rhyme, etc., and then when the chorus begins, there's a satisfying release of tension and feeling of having hit home-base. Scott used Kelly Clarkson's work as an example so I'll continue to use her work... The lyrics and the song link for "Breakaway" are below. I really like this song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-3vPxKdj6oVERSE 1
Grew up in a small town
And when the rain would fall down
I'd just stare out my window
Dreamin' of what could be
And if I'd end up happy
I would pray
VERSE 2
Trying hard to reach out
But when I tried to speak out
Felt like no one could hear me
Wanted to belong here
But something felt so wrong here
So I pray
I could breakaway
CHORUS
I'll spread my wings, and I'll learn how to fly
I'll do what it takes till I touch the sky
And I'll make a wish
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
Out of the darkness and into the sun
But I won't forget all the ones that I love
I'll take a risk
Take a chance
Make a change
And breakaway
If you count the phrases in verse 1, there are six of them. In verse 2, though, there are seven. That seventh phrase in verse 2 serves as a means to transition (lyrically) more smoothly into the chorus. While it's possible to enter the chorus after line 6 (verse 2), adding this linking seventh line disturbs the established motion and, in so doing, creates tension. The melody for this line also lifts expectantly. (This is why pre-choruses are sometimes called 'lifts'). These two factors combine and lift expectations in the listener (i.e. "tension"). So this last line of verse 2 is a trigger for the chorus. It creates tension which is released with the arrival of the chorus. In the hands of Kelly Clarkson, these chorus lyrics feel like they arrive with an explosion. The seventh line augments this feeling. Some song analysts would call this a one-line prechorus others would could it a trigger line or a one-line lift. For me, I see this as a transitional line that empowers the chorus and connects it to the verse more strongly. The thing is that whatever it's called, it's usual purpose is to raise a listener's expectations and boost a feeling of satisfaction when the chorus arrives. PSY's "Gangnam Style" has one of the best pre-choruses I've heard. It lifts expectations enormously as it prepares the listener for the chorus. As I hear it, the prechorus starts at 0:46 and the chorus enters at 1:10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZTcIJ2ycwMRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Songwriting
|
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,992
PG Music Staff
|
|
PG Music Staff
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,992 |
It's always really cool when people provide their own personal writing tips, and seeing how and in what ways people can adapt them to work for themselves. Really neat stuff.
Cheers,
Ember
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: The Newly Designed Piano Roll Window
In this video, we explore the updated Piano Roll, complete with a modernized look and exciting new features. You’ll see new filtering options that make it easy to focus on specific note groups, smoother and more intuitive note entry and editing, and enhanced options for zooming, looping, and more.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,794
Posts796,206
Members39,959
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean