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today's hearing test shows i have normal hearing at 1k, mild loss (30db) at 2k and moderate loss (60db)at 4k with my right ear slightly worse at 8k.
i haven't noticed any problems listening to commercial recordings on phones or speakers and mixes i did a few years ago still sound right. no need to turn up the treble control on the hifi.
for every day use i will be fitted with hearing aids so that my wife's mumbling becomes intelligible speech but i need some help from the forum.
if i continue to mix (without hearing aids) on headphones and check on speakers, bearing in mind commercial recordings still sound good - and that's what i'll be aiming for - can anyone advise me? i haven't found a need to increase top end eq on any recent mixes so can anyone advise me? do i need to do anything different for my mixes to sound good to people without hearing loss?
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Your loss of frequencies happened over time. So your brain had time to adjust .. there likely wasn't a sudden difference which would make a true comparison much easier.
A bit of a false comparison is that you are saying commercial music sounds fine and comparable to yours .. well yeah, it should, as you are listening to the commercial music with the same ears, so I would expect this result (see above) .. your brain has had time to adapt.
You didn't go into detail on the hearing aids you bought; do they adjust for your frequency deficiencies, or do they just make things louder?
I personally have a slight dip at 5-8 kHz (nowhere near the 30 dB you mentioned) .. but I am aware of it and use meters to visually make sure I don't over adjust 'for me'.
My best friend bought very expensive hearing aids that compensate for his frequency loss (much more severe than mine), which I've thought about doing, but over time I've realized his hearing aids may be 'over compensating'. So I offer no advice there.
Your best bet is probably to let other people listen to your stuff and get input, then guide yourself from this input with all things considered (including your known loss). And use meters to verify.
It ain't going to get better (hearing doesn't do that very well). But you certainly can learn to deal with it and adjust.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Sorry to hear this, Bob.
I've made money for six decades transcribing music, and rely on my good ears. I have the 'father's family dip' in hearing mid-frequency, but only in one ear, so I guess I never notice a problem. My high frequency hearing is surprisingly good considering all the bands I've played in front of.
I think there is someone on this forum who is an audiologist. I was even about to guess it was rharv, and he gave some great advice. I'm sure you'll get some more thoughts.
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Hi Bob, I think TONAL BALANCE CONTROL From Izotope would help you greatly. They have analyised thousands of Industry standard songs over all Genres and over all frequencies.So you pick a genre close to your song and it will tell you real time whether your song is lacking in one area of the frequencey spectrum or has to much in another area.You then adjust your song plugins to balance your mix out to an Industry standard level.This is good for everyone because you dont have to fully rely on your ears especially if you have great experience of what makes bassy sound and what makes high end etc .I really love this product also its amazing urs Hugh https://www.izotope.com/en/products/tonal-balance-control-2.html
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Matt,
I am not an audiologist.
I have consulted with a few, but .. my suggestion/advice should be taken with a grain of salt
Maybe you were thinking of RockStarNot, who is also not an audiologist, but works more in that field and could probably provide much more qualified/empirical advice than I ..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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thanks for the advice so far but $199 for tonal balance control is out of my league. anyone know any alternatives?
updates as i go along and i'll keep you all informed. i have to wait for my audiology hearing fitting before i get full details of what the hearing aids will do and if they can be 'tuned' to simply boost the frequencies i am missing.
nice to know there are friendly people here!
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There are hearing aids that use Bluetooth communication and smart apps to make real time setting adjustments. Some apps store presets for use in particular situations.
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Hi Bob, worry not too much. Many people here have some form of hearing loss and lots of us wear hearing aids. I’ve had hearing aids for almost 40 years now. Slowly over time it got worse and tinnitus increased. However tools got better.
If I use headphones I cannot wear hearing aids. When I mix I use Izotope Tonal Balance Control and it helps. With hearing aids in I tend to get too bass heavy and Tonal Balance Control shows this.
I see you cannot justify Tonal Balance Control, never mind there are other good analysers that will do similar. Melda Productions analyser (Manalyzer) is quite good and has several presets that show roughly where a mix should be. Voxengo Span is another good analyser, takes a bit more getting to know however. Both the Melda and Voxengo analysers are free.
The Melda has a graph that shows where a mix should be according to the genre you’re mixing to as really the Tonal Balance Control does. The real difference is that Tonal Balance Control is a bit easier to follow IMHO.
Just some thoughts but worry not too much.
Take care
Tony.
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The depth of knowledge and experience on this site never ceases to ......
So, Bob, does it help for people with no particular knowledge of audio
to simply listen to you songs and comment? If I knew what to listen for,
I'll help in any way I can.
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thanks - this is getting better and better. one thing i do have is izotope elements suite and i gave the ozone elements it's first run today (i've not been seriously mixing for a while). it certainly seemed to liven up the mix i had. what i'm afraid of is overcompensating to make a mix seem right to me but not right for other people.
thanks for the advice on Manalyser and Span i'll see how they work. my new hearing aids will arrive shortly but my 'fitting' is not till the end of the month and i'm not sure what that entails. i presume the audiologist has programmed them to my particular needs.
i think i may be heading for two scenarios - firstly real life with hearing aids and musical life without hearing aids trusting to my ears as they are with help from meters and a double check from musician friends (and maybe forumites) on the final mixes.
these days playing live is mainly acoustic with friends so that will probably be with the aids in.
thank you all for your help and encouragement.
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Bob, over the years I’ve had many pairs of Really expensive high end hearing aids. Most ended up in the bottom drawer or just under the socks. They were totally uncomfortable.
Here in Australia we olde pensioners get free hearing aids so I lined up yet again. The hearing aids I was given are external (behind the ears). These have a really small bit that go into the ear. Around the into ear part is a really soft plastic thing that holds them snug in the ear. They are totally comfortable, so much so they go in when I wake up and stay in most of the time. The biggest issue is they are that comfortable the risk of wearing them into the shower is there. Hearing aids do not cope with swimming or showering.
I do take them out when performing. I always did. They distort or actually cut out sounds over a certain level. You soon get used to the idea.
It is vital the aids are totally comfortable. Get comfort over looks and/or features is my advice.
Tony
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thanks for the advice so far but $199 for tonal balance control is out of my league. anyone know any alternatives? Part of Hugh2's advice on how Tonal Balance works can be used in a manual way. Find a CD or online recording of a popular song that's in the same genre of what the song you're mixing is. When you start getting in the final parts of mixing, you can play that reference song and then yours and try and make the instrument balances and EQ of your song sound as close to the reference as possible. After you do a few rounds of tweaking you should be close to a good sounding song.
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thanks for the new advice.
teunis, your aids sound like the ones i'm getting from the National Health Service. i'll be using them for day to day situations (although the videos they've sent me tell me i'll be delighted to hear things like birdsong again which i can hear perfectly!) do you find that your hearing has changed when you take them out? i'm happy with the way i've been mixing so far and with all the help i'm getting here that's how i'm going to continue. however the intro videos tell me that to get used to the aids will take about eight weeks while my brain 'retrains'. retraining to use the aids is fine but i don't want to retrain my brain to hear things differently without the aids.
do you hear the way you used to when you take them out?
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Yep you’ll hear things you didn’t know still existed. Initially birds for example could even give you a fright. Traffic does become scary. Initially driving a car totally changed with speed being lowered. The thing I first noticed was the sound of my neck on the collar of my shirt. Most of this goes away very quickly.
But as was said earlier by someone else. The loss was probably fairly gradual and really did not have as much affect on mixing as you think. I mix with the aids in then take them out and also listen with headphones. I also realise most people I play to have significant hearing loss (a lot of them don’t know). I usually play to aged people.
Tony
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My hearing issues started 40 years ago. Too many concerts and festivals in the 60's and 70's. Too many band years. Too much stupid behavior using power equipment sans good hearing protection. An audiologist told me 9 years ago told me that my hearing loss was too profound in the upper frequencies to correct or even enhance. I got the impression she had been out of school for about 50 years or so  I'm stubborn so I sought out and eventually found an outstanding audiologist eight years ago. She's young, research oriented and on the cusp of technology. She was fascinated by my understanding of EQ, compression, etc. Together we worked out three custom programs for my aids. She's sorta taken me on as a research project! One of those three is just for mixing. I won't go into the details of it but I will say she changed my life. I hear birds, crickets, tree frogs, leaves crushing beneath my mountain bike tires AND I hear cymbals, rides, hi-hats well enough to mix. Without the aids I can't hear music well enough to bother turning it on and I would have to use close captioning on tv. So with that technology and, of course, Janice's golden ears (she can hear a humming bird peep when inside the house with the windows closed) I can mix, master and enjoy so many more things. I only suggest that if you have a deficiency don't go cheap trying to improve it. Mail order aids and even aids from an audiologist who doesn't regularly work closely with you are at best minimally effective and at worst damn irritating. Pardon the ramble. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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quick update and another round of thank yous. my hearing aids have arrived and although my online consultation isn't till the end of the month, the instructions say to try using them if i feel confident.
as Teunis said some sounds i had forgotten or at least at the volume the aids now render them, mouse clicks being a good example.
having listened to old mixes with and without i wouldn't actually change much. the aids add a little 'crispness' but i'm not sure i'd change the basic mix. same with commercial tracks. anyway when i talk to the audiologist i'll check what the aids are programmed to do. if they simply compensate for the hearing loss frequencies well and good, but if they overcompensate i'll know that with the aids what i'm hearing is over toppy and will just mix as normal without.
but all is well so far and i'm very grateful for help and advice received to date
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As I mentioned there is much more to it than that ... at least for me. High end aids can be programmed in multiple ways to help you. Multi-band eq and compression, the left and right aid communicating via bluetooth, the ability to analyze the sonic environment and adapt and phone apps to let you change the program as needed. Only you know what sounds "right" and that requires communicating with an audiologist beyond simply boosting some high f and leaving it at that. A lot of audiologists tend to focus on manipulating variables that relates to speech. That's fine. But I need to hear a ride, a high hat, a kick drum click, vocal sibilance, the ring of a snare, squeaks on an acoustic guitar, etc. Pardon the ramble...it's just that my audiologist literally changed my life. I suspect my loss is greater than yours so I can likely be ignored Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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As I mentioned there is much more to it than that ... at least for me. High end aids can be programmed in multiple ways to help you. Multi-band eq and compression, the left and right aid communicating via bluetooth, the ability to analyze the sonic environment and adapt and phone apps to let you change the program as needed. Only you know what sounds "right" and that requires communicating with an audiologist beyond simply boosting some high f and leaving it at that. A lot of audiologists tend to focus on manipulating variables that relates to speech. That's fine. But I need to hear a ride, a high hat, a kick drum kick, vocal sibilance, the ring of a snare, squeaks on an acoustic guitar, etc. Pardon the ramble...it's just that my audiologist literally changed my life. I suspect my loss is greater than yours so I can likely be ignored Bud What aids are you using and what was the cost? I have high freq loss in the 4k range....and tinnitus in that same range. Sounds like crickets. I've never been bothered by the tinnitus. But it does mask the highs. I find I have to pay attention to my mixes lest they become too crispy on the top end for normal listeners. Too many really, really loud bands, and gunfire without using the proper protections. I just ordered a set of Axil buds..... good noise reduction and enhancement to 6x as well as bluetooth music from the phone. Can run either of the 3 modes or any combination. Figured I'd give it a try.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hi Bob!
Sorry about your hearing loss, I can relate. In fact, I got fit with my first aids at age 5, and I'm now 60. I'm sure no one remembers this as I don't frequent the forum very, ah, frequently...and here we are discussing sonic frequencies...but my handle stands for Deaf In One Ear Can't Hear Out Of The Other ...DIOECHOOTO
Aaanyhoo...lots of good advice here already, but I thought I would chime in, at risk of triggering some tinnitus...since I have had similar concerns over mixing.
I recently bought a new Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and it came with a vst3 called "Balancer", and it's pretty cool because apparently it is programmed with some sort of AI that "learns" as you go. But in the end it's really just another spectral analyzer such as those that have already been recommended.
And this is what I really wanted to mention: the Focusrite interface I used previously was a Saffire, and it came with "mixer control" software that was really powerful, so powerful that I never learned to use even a small fraction of it's capability (nor did I have need to), but what I did use a LOT was this feature called VRM, virtual reference monitoring. What this supposedly does is change the characteristics of the sound as if it were being played through any of a large menu of setups. Studios setups with various monitors, bedroom studio, 1980's living room "stereo", Flat screen tv, boombox...you name it! I don't know how helpful it really was to me, but I do know it SEEMED very helpful to have that capability. What it allows is for you to hear your mix from all kinds of different perspectives, including from different places in "the room". Amazing.
So I don't know if there is anything else out there quite like that, but I really miss it, as it doesn't work with my new Focusrite.
I just thought I would put that out there, FWIW.
BTW My very small BTE (behind the ear) hearing aids do work with headphones on over them, they are quite comfortable and feedback is not a problem. Because they are digital I have a few different programs, and so for music I use a "pure" program that has no antifeedback or "speech algorithm" or noise reduction or anything (and yet they still don't feedback!), as part of feedback foiling program is it creates an oscillation, thus short circuiting the feedback loop, but it sounds crappy as it creates a tremelo effect. Any of those features could cause unwanted artifacts, as I understand it.
Happy music making, Bob!
Last edited by DIOECHOOTO; 07/16/20 01:27 PM.
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Bob,
If you have your hearing loss curves, I have successfully set up some stacked 31 band EQ VST plug-ins for folks for them to listen with flat response headphones and with their hearing aids not in their ears.
I can show you how to do it, but you need a pretty decent pair of headphones. And a DAW that will allow you to put several instances of EQ VST in series.
Significant notches like the typical 4kHz gunfire noise induced loss are a little more difficult to deal with in this technique.
No promises on a miracle solution but I’ve helped several people with this in the past.
Hit me up with a PM if you want to get started.
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This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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