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How do i navigate between various scales? #609245 08/03/20 03:51 AM Songwriting
Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark Peters Garage OP Journeyman
OP Peters Garage Journeyman Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark	Hi There, I do compositions on almost daily level, but sometimes I feel a little bit lost, when I want break out of a scale corresponding to the Circle of Fifths. I use quite a few tools to help me, but none of them has helped me gain the overview or enough insight of what I am really doing. It feels like, when it works to enter chords out of scale and succeed, it's more luck than knowledge. Let me give you an example: G2 - D/F# - E7sus4 - E7sus4 G6/B - G6/B - A7sus4 - A7sus4 G6/B - G6/B - E7sus4 - E7 This is the Intro of a composition, and the 1st verse starts in CMaj7 It sounds nice, but I simply can't figure out why or find an answer that makes me understand, why these chords works well together. G & D are in the Circle of Fifth of G Major, but E or E7 is not G & A are in the Circle of Fifth of D Major, but E or E7 is not .....puzzled or bamboozled... The obvious answer is: Study music theory The more lazy solution: Ask people in the forum My goal: I want to know that when I do songwriting in a certain chord progression within a key, I want to know, from which neighbor scales can I borrow chords, or which chord progression could I jump into? Makes sense? My toolkit for composing: GarageBand, Tonality and Suggester for IOS BIAB, Logic Pro X and iAudio for OSX + www.chorderator.com Any suggestions, tools or websites that can enlighten me? Last edited by Peters Garage; 08/03/20 03:54 AM. MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609250 08/03/20 04:37 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda	That is a big question indeed - chord substitution - all about tension (diatonic or out of the key). pulling (resolving) back into the key. Obviously you are correct with the initial answer... study music theory. But if you want a quick forum answer here is one way I attempt to handle the question that may or may not work for you. https://www.scalerplugin.com/ Or is you are a reader, this can help you fall asleep at night with some sweet dreams. https://rickbeato.com/products/the-beato-book-4-0-pdf Or, if you prefer video, watch/listen to everything this guy talks about... BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609257 08/03/20 07:26 AM Songwriting
Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark Peters Garage OP Journeyman
OP Peters Garage Journeyman Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark	Hi Dan Scaler 2 - that is an excellent suggestion - I'll combine it with BIAB in my DAW. Thank you - this will at least help me along the way. MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609258 08/03/20 07:27 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 409 Arcachon, France TheMaartian Journeyman
TheMaartian Journeyman Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 409 Arcachon, France	I'd also recommend giving this guy some time. His music theory videos are outstanding! Here's his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRwIF4NhKQf6tQpnYDcSC5A Here's an example that speaks to your question (how to modulate between keys). ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; RME Fireface UCX II; BiaB 2025 Ultra Bitwig Studio 5; Studio One Pro 7; Melodyne Studio 5; Acoustica Premium 7 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? TheMaartian #609260 08/03/20 07:42 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda	Originally Posted By: TheMaartian I'd also recommend giving this guy some time. His music theory videos are outstanding! So much good stuff out there. So we don't have to go back to music school to learn all the theory. We can learn it bit by bit as we go along. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609261 08/03/20 07:50 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda	Originally Posted By: Peters Garage Hi Dan Scaler 2 - that is an excellent suggestion - I'll combine it with BIAB in my DAW/ Exactly what I have learned to do. The BIAB VST is placed on one track and Scaler is placed on a second track in Reaper in almost every project I work on. This was a big topic (at least for me) several months ago when Scaler 2 was launched. It did however expose a weakness of BIAB VST in terms of exchanging block chords in midi format. And with Scaler 2 in not providing Chord names in its midi. Scaler says they will adjust for us in future. BIAB, well, does what BIAB does, but with a little bit of effort a workaround can be found. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? DrDan #609262 08/03/20 07:59 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,232 Wauconda	Oh, sorry one more thing regarding Scaler 2. This program can do so much stuff it sometimes hurts my head thinking about how to do what I want to do! I talked to the developers and they apologized. But I really believe they felt it was more my problem then theirs . Therefore, much like BIAB, it has a learning curve. Difference for me is I have been using BIAB for decades but Scaler 2 - only months. What I am getting at is, using Scaler 2 with BIAB in your DAW is all about finding a workflow to get the job done. I suppose when I put it that way, it sounds kind of obvious. Have fun. Dan BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609264 08/03/20 08:06 AM Songwriting
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 7,584 Sacramento, California dcuny Veteran
dcuny Veteran Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 7,584 Sacramento, California	Originally Posted By: Peters Garage It sounds nice, but I simply can't figure out why or find an answer that makes me understand, why these chords works well together. There are many organizational principles that can make a chord progression "make sense". One of the most basic is I-IV-V, where you can move freely between those three chords. The next is Circle of Fifths, where chord motion moves in a V-I motion. Using a non-root in the bass an moving stepwise is also a powerful principle. Moving from one chord to the next, where one chord shares many of the same notes, also often creates smooth harmonic motion. Finally, you can simply use the principle of tension/release to move from one chord to the next. There are all sorts of ways to create tension. One of the most effective is to alter notes so the function of the chord is obscured - for example, altering the 3rd so the tonality isn't immediately clear, or destabilizing the chord with a non-root bass note. Using tension/release, the sky's the limit. You can take a "regular" progression, and then alter it to subvert expectations, even removing chords to create further ambiguity. As for your example: G2 - D/F# - E7sus4 - E7sus4 Here, you're using the stepwise bass movement G-F#-E to explain the harmonic motion. You destabilize a chord when you use a non-root note in the bass, which creates tension/release in D/F# - E7sus4. E7sus4 - Em7/B - A7sus4 The 3rd of the chord is the identifier of major/minor tonality. By using a suspension, you've obscured that identity. The G6 has the same notes as Em7, which could be heard as a shift from a E7 to an Em7, so I've written it that way. The non-root bass on the Em7/B makes it unstable, so as long as the chord you're moving to is more stable, it'll have some amount of resolution. And that's the case of the A7sus4. The chord motion can be heard as a circle of fifths ii7-V7, while bass moves down stepwise to resolve the tension. But the A7sus4 isn't a full resolution, so you jump back and try a different resolution: Em7/B - E7sus4 - E7 This time, the bass makes a circle of fifths motion, and the chord shifts from the Em7 back to the E7sus, which you hear a coming back to the tonality you had temporarily left. The E7sus4 then resolves to an E7 as expected. As far as your question goes, you can pick any chord and any scale - as long as give the listener some sort of harmonic logic as to why you did that - even if it's reason is to make the music more "interesting" by choosing a "wrong" chord. -- David Cuny My virtual singer development blog Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? TheMaartian #609270 08/03/20 08:14 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381 Tangmo Expert
Tangmo Expert Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381	Originally Posted By: TheMaartian I'd also recommend giving this guy some time. His music theory videos are outstanding! Here's his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRwIF4NhKQf6tQpnYDcSC5A Here's an example that speaks to your question (how to modulate between keys). This guy is excellent. Videos are short, stick to one concept, and are immediately actionable. The problem is in learning these things so they stick. Should be less of a bear for you if you do work every day. Theory is FUN and fascinating. And if what you've been exposed to so far isn't, it hasn't been taught well. This guy's introductions to the 7 modes of Major are also very good. Introductory, short, and actionable. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRDDHLvQb8HjE2r7_ZuNtWA Last edited by Tangmo; 08/03/20 08:23 AM. BIAB 2021 Audiophile. Windows 10 64bit. Songwriter, lyricist, composer(?) loving all styles. Some pre-BIAB music from Farfetched Tangmo Band's first CD. https://alonetone.com/tangmo/playlists/close-to-the-ground

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609277 08/03/20 08:40 AM Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,343 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,343 Middlesex, NC	I know this isn't probably very useful..... but ..... while I have studied music theory, and understand a fair amount of the jargon and such, I rarely apply it in a technical sense to my playing. At least to my knowledge. If you were to stop me on any specific note and ask what that note was.... I wouldn't have a clue. If you asked if I was in a melodic major or pentatonic minor scale, again, not a clue. I play what I'm feeling and it's all winging it. My musical brain just doesn't function that way. Like I said... that's probably useless information to you. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609280 08/03/20 08:53 AM Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381 Tangmo Expert
Tangmo Expert Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,381	You said: I want to know that when I do songwriting in a certain chord progression within a key, I want to know, from which neighbor scales can I borrow chords, or which chord progression could I jump into? I'm assuming here you don't necessarily want a "permanent" key change....just a chord (or a few) outside the scale. Look into Secondary Dominants. That is taking any note of the scale, looking at it's scale and using the V7 of that scale. ex: Key of C--the 5 is a GMaj. In the Gmajor scale, D7 is the V7. That's why D7 sounds good in a song in C even though all the notes are not present in the C scale. The Secondary dominant of the V is most common, but you can use any note of the scale to find one. I'm reasonably sure. Look into parallel modes--Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian etc. Ex: If you are writing in C major, you can introduce any chord derived from a C Dorian scale--Cm Dm Eb F Gm Adim Bb. There are 6 useful alternative modes of each major scale (plus Locrian) which are perfectly usable even if you don't want to actually do a full-on key change. This is a great way to introduce tension or just to simply change the mood for a bar or a few (or more than a few, like a genuine change up middle 8). This is technically called "modal interchange". I've got a chart hanging on my wall made by the fellow from my second link above, but no doubt visual aides are available online to help you. That's a couple of direct answers. You're likely way ahead of me understanding these, but maybe just an introduction will get you moving quickly. EDIT: On reflection, I realized the bit about secondary dominants is likely covered with your "circle of 5ths" thing. I haven't found a useful tutorial for myself, especially since different "explainers" seem to use different tools and in different ways. BUT, I wonder if you have thought about taking the second "tip" a further step...using secondary dominants of chords from parallel modes? Last edited by Tangmo; 08/03/20 09:48 AM. BIAB 2021 Audiophile. Windows 10 64bit. Songwriter, lyricist, composer(?) loving all styles. Some pre-BIAB music from Farfetched Tangmo Band's first CD. https://alonetone.com/tangmo/playlists/close-to-the-ground

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609282 08/03/20 08:54 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,216 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,216 Hamlin NY	You have been given some excellent advice already. Any chord can following any other chord but what I like to do is to find chords that share one of two notes with each other. Using your chords for example: 1-G2 = G-A-D 2-D/F# = D-F#-A 3-E7sus4 = E-A-B-D 4-G6 (also called Em7) = G-B-D-E 5-A7sus4 = A-D-E-G 6-G6 (also called Em7) = G-B-D-E 7-E7sus4 = E-A-B-D 8-E7 = E-G#-B-D 9-CMaj7 = C-E-G-B As you can see each chord movement shares two common notes. Also note that the other notes transitions is only a step or half step away. This makes for a great sounding chord progress. I hope this helps. Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer. It's called the Heineken Maneuver. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Guitarhacker #609284 08/03/20 08:59 AM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,216 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,216 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker I know this isn't probably very useful..... but ..... while I have studied music theory, and understand a fair amount of the jargon and such, I rarely apply it in a technical sense to my playing. At least to my knowledge. If you were to stop me on any specific note and ask what that note was.... I wouldn't have a clue. If you asked if I was in a melodic major or pentatonic minor scale, again, not a clue. I play what I'm feeling and it's all winging it. My musical brain just doesn't function that way. Like I said... that's probably useless information to you. When I taught music theory to my guitar students I always told them learn music theory so you can analyze what you played BUT don't let it dictate your playing. Learning scales and such is very helpful in becoming a better musician but don't let it rule your playing. If your playing isn't from the heart then it isn't worth a dime IMHO. Note that you don't need to know music theory to play great music. That has been proven many times! Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer. It's called the Heineken Maneuver. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? MarioD #609288 08/03/20 10:56 AM Songwriting
Joined: Oct 2017 Posts: 745 Ohio DebMurphy Journeyman
DebMurphy Journeyman Joined: Oct 2017 Posts: 745 Ohio	My word! That is perfect and what I have been looking for! Thank you! ...Deb

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? Peters Garage #609290 08/03/20 11:28 AM Songwriting
Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark Peters Garage OP Journeyman
OP Peters Garage Journeyman Joined: May 2016 Posts: 368 Denmark	WAUW!!! There is so much knowledge transfer in this thread from all of you, that is fantastic - and a bit overwhelming. Thank you to everyone of you participating. Well I decided - in order for me to understand ..... and hopefully write better songs, I need to better on the theory side, to actually understand the decisions I take better. I invested in Scaler2 tonight - and the trick is to find the workflow between BIAB, Scaler 2 and my DAW. So far I'm a bit blown away about the possibilities in that setup. Guitarhacker - I'm with you almost all the way, I normally haven't got much direction of where I am on the fretboard. I just learned some chords and a blues scale back in 1982..... Once again - thank you guys MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services

Re: How do i navigate between various scales? DebMurphy #609304 08/03/20 01:03 PM Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,216 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,216 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: DSM My word! That is perfect and what I have been looking for! Thank you! ...Deb You now know my secret for some of my chord changes! Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer. It's called the Heineken Maneuver. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

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