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Full disclosure -- about 95% or more of the music I write is instrumental. I suspect this may be because I'm a guitarist and not much of a singer, so I suppose I'm naturally inclined toward instrumentals as opposed to songs. But this doesn't directly connect with the topic, really.
I'm curious about this because I'd like to hear from others as to how it works for you. For me, I tend to build chord progressions and then find melodies that work within them. I have built simple harmonic progressions and complex ones and I've been able to construct melodies that work well within each sort of framework. But as I listen to music I like -- which often are songs -- I wonder if the composer thought of the melody first and then found a way to support it with a chord progression, or if the composer did as I do and wrote a melody that fit the progression. Some songs I listen to, I honestly don't think I could have come up with that melody based on a chord progression alone. These songs almost always don't rely on the popular cliche'd progressions, either: I IV V, I VI II V, etc.
Of course, many great songs with memorable melodies have been written using these same, time-worn progressions. But I'd have to say in virtually every instance, the melody was arrived at within the context of the progression. Or perhaps there might have been a split going on? A portion of the song's melody was derived from the progression and another portion forced a progression to be built around that section of melody?
Hey, I'm just throwing stuff out there. I'm curious, really, on the process you go through when creating a piece of music. I think that, when one sits down to write a piece, the first thing one must do is decide whether to lay out a harmonic progression or to come up with a melody (or at least some melodic motifs). So, care to comment?
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I'll give you a bump....from my perspective.
I've only written a few instrumentals over the decades.
For an instrumental to hold my attention it can't be too long and there must be a motif that is revisited appropriately through out the composition.
Otherwise, instrumentals can become dull and uninteresting unless one actually prefers the guitar-centric/ambient/soundscape/soundtrack genre.
For me:
1) The subject I choose to write determines whether it's a minor/major tonality
2) I don't try to create a complex batch of fret board chord gymnastics.
3) How I phrase my lyrics determines what melody (lyrics inclusive) I go with.
4) I do countless takes (because I suck at singing) to get that melody take.
5) Of course, then harmonies will fall into place.
Don't know if I've deviated or not but thought I'd comment.
Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 08/17/20 12:22 PM.
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I don't do either well so, for me, a listenable song is good enough, by hook or by crook. 
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Hi Michael, These days, I tend to write lyrics with a melodic rhythm in place. Often in BIAB, I simply enter repeated notes on a chord tone that give me the melodic rhythm I need that works for the lyrics. During this phase of the song, I create a basic chord progression that works for the lyrics. Once the above is settled, I move the notes used for melodic rhythm, up and down to create a melody. Once that is done, and I have a melody that sits comfortably with me, I then look to enhance the chord progression. The below song I co-wrote with Steve Young used the above approach. I sent the BIAB file and the vocal track to Steve, the production below is what he came up with. The chord progress Steve used is quite different in places from the one I used. https://soundcloud.com/noel-adams/in-the-still-of-this-gentle-nightRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Both...and in some pieces, both in turns in the same piece.
Vocals is the only "melody" instrument I have any measure of dexterity "playing". I'm going to use the definition of "melody" that refers to "tunes" for most of this explanation.
I've been submitted fully fleshed out musical backings and asked to come up with lyrics and vocal melodies. In those cases, the progression obviously came first and any melody I came up with was sussed out of those chords and movement. For me, that's by ear. The down side is/was--the melody that I "heard" is sometimes ruined when the chords don't go where I'd like to go. Sometimes I can change, and sometimes I can't (or just don't want to).
If I am writing from scratch with an acoustic, then ALWAYS it starts with a line or two of lyric WITH melody that influences the rest of the song. It'd be rare that I rely wholly on a "standard" progression, but rather I feel my way through chords that carry the melody. That melody is coming faster than a progression might come. In those instances, it's the melody that rules. The downside is--sometimes I can't find (or can't play) the chord I hear in my head and might be forced to go for a substitution.
So far, for me at least, with BIAB what happens more closely resembles the first of those where chords are king. This is especially true since my musical interests have shifted to expanding the palette of chords. What I aim for here is such movement of chords that are "almost" melodic all by themselves. It sort of resembles the nature of modern Jazz in that way, as well as some of the genres you mentioned.
There are still times I will write a progression in BIAB to fit a melody line. Sort of giving BIAB the role of my acoustic. I'm working on one now. But when it came to the chorus, I wanted a strong, interesting progression and I'll find a melody within it. So, when it's finished (if it ever is) melody will rule one part, and chords the other.
Last edited by Tangmo; 08/17/20 01:04 PM.
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I like Tangmo write totally from a singers perspective since I don't really play any instruments. My method is based on Rhythm (drums, bass, and chords) .. mostly sustained chords in the beginning. As I'm singing or coming up with a melody throughout the song my voice will go in certain places that in turn reflects chord changes whether up or down. In my view chords don't make the melody. They are only there to support the melody. The biggest challenges I have is when an instrumentalist brings me a song they wrote and want me to create lyrics. Musicians while extremely talented tend to overplay for a vocalist. Sometimes the passages do not allow time for a vocalist to even breathe. They don't cross over from one bar to the next and they assume they need to fill in all the spaces. Also musicians love complex chords having the vocalist sometimes perform vocal acrobatics just to keep up. LOL Most popular music is really pretty basic in the end. It's just that in my opinion and experience a lot of musicians find that boring. So to answer your post I would say that I write from the melody first and build chord progressions around that. I also have my most success when I come up with the hook first. That allows me to build a pretty good story. When I do it the other way ... verse first I usually struggle to come up with a decent hook. Anyway thanks for letting me chime in.
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I appreciate all the responses. And they've caused me to think a bit more on the topic, specifically as it refers to BiaB. Because of its rather unique approach, I've tended to favor the "plug in some chords, and then fit a melody" way of doing things.
More recently, I've moved beyond the simplistic, but I'm still working with harmonies mostly. What I tend to do now is I will develope a harmonic structure first, then bring it into BiaB, and I like to do this as a midi file. Reason why is sometimes BiaB doesn't like the chord spellings I come up with, but it will adapt if I import midi. This gives me the freedom to come up with some very sophisticated progressions, but usually the chords BiaB comes up with are at least close to what I had in mind.
Those of you who are melody driven, I can follow your lines of thought, but it seems to me it would be somewhat difficult to use BiaB from the get-go using a melody-driven approach since BiaB requires chords to be input in order to function. So, it sounds like you're doing some composition before using BiaB. Which I totally understand, especially since I'm doing much the same with my harmony-driven approach.
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For me, a song starts with an idea in the form of a lyric or phrase or a rhyme. I write poems too, in the same way. They're usually silly stuff triggered by an event or memory or by something someone says or does. For example:
Surgery
I made the decision
To have an incision
Here in the side of my neck
A disc in my vertebrae
Finally wore away
Turning me into a wreck
yada, yada, yada
But songs come with a melody too, or at least the initial phrase or lyric usually does. Sometimes I have a chorus with a melody and no verses. Sometimes there's a verse and a melody but no chorus. In any case, once I have the snippet worked out in my head, I pick up the guitar and find a key that works and figure out the chords for that section. After that it becomes work. My life is littered with unfinished songs.
Interesting thread.
Be well.
Scott
Last edited by olemon; 08/19/20 12:59 AM.
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This is very interesting topic for debate - I've always personally done melody myself. Interesting to see other people's insights
Cheers,
Deryk
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When I work on a song, melody and chords tend to come at the same time. First, and easily.
Lyrics..... that's a different story. That part of writing is the heavy lifting for me. And that is the reason I like to write with folks who have a gift for the lyrical part of the song process.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/19/20 02:44 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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For instrumentals I figure out a chord progression then come up with a lead.
For vocals it is the opposite; the lyrics come first, followed by the melody, and then the chords. Sometimes the lyrics, melody, and chords all come simultaneously.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
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Harmony first, melody later on.
Since I've been using BIAB, my sequence is like this:
First I find a style I'm interested in..listen to it a bit.
Then I layout chords that I think go well with the style..re-generate and listen, change, and get to the "shape" of the song.
After this, I move it to my DAW (I use RealBand).
I start constructing a melody against the chord "landscape" that I've created.
Then work with RT's and other musical elements to flesh it out.
Most times, after all this is done, I create lyrics.
Then just keep refining until satisfied.
Windows 11, Intel Core i5-8600T 2.3Ghz, 16 gig ram, BIAB 2025 MegaPak, SampleTank 4, Keystation49 Kybd, Neewer NW-800 mic
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Being mostly an instrumentalist, I have sometimes used BiaB's Melodist to generate ideas for me. This worked surprisingly well initially, but then I began to notice that the Melodist would often generate the same melodic motifs, which I quickly became tired of, so I don't use it anymore. I've gained more confidence in generating melodies that I actually like now, but I don't always input them into BiaB, preferring to use my DAW of choice, Cakewalk. Although I do like the notation editor that BiaB uses. It's fast and efficient, once you get the hang of it.
I tend to look at my compositions once the melodies have been set, and only then consider whether the piece can become a song. I consider the melody and just how likely lyrics can be adapted. If it's complex, perhaps not so much, but then I also tell myself there's no reason why the melody can't be simplified. This has helped a lot.
Now for lyrics, I have written only two songs where the songs were composed around the lyrics. But then I've written only three songs with lyrics, so . . . One might say the jury is still out in this matter. Nonetheless, even though I don't think of myself as a lyricist, I've found that it's not difficult for me to come up with something. My lyrics may not be high poetry, but they work, at least. The last tune i wrote lyrics for was the first one where I had to fit lyrics to an existing melody line. This ended up being a rather complex operation. I had to chart out emphasis, based on the melody, and then find the right words that would correspond to the correct emphasis . . . and make sense. It took a couple of tries, but I was able to arrive at a set of lyrics that worked. Again, not high poetry, but . . . Did I mention I'm not a lyricist?
Last edited by cooltouch; 08/21/20 01:46 AM.
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Lyrics always first.
Figuring out time signature and tempo comes next.
Song structure next.
Chords usually next. I will often workshop a chord progression that catches my ear from someone else’s song or Tickets to Write, or something Rick Beato points out in one of his What Makes This Song Great videos.
Melody of different sections is usually last.
Rarely melody first. Sometimes a lyric will infer a melody but so rare
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The first time I ever wrote lyrics for a tune, it was a slow blues. That's like falling off a log, really. The slow blues format is pretty clear in its structure, so it was easy writing lyrics that fit. I wish all tunes were so easy.
Last edited by cooltouch; 08/25/20 07:52 AM.
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Most often, I'm fooling around on my guitar when a musical idea comes. (A lyrical idea might pop into my head at any moment, so I always carry a pen and pad, just in case.)
Recently, though, I plugged in four four-bar chord progressions into BIAB (all in Bb) just to see how they might sound. (I had Googled "chord progressions" and was looking to try some I had not used before.) Turnes out I wrote a tune to cover all four of the progressions. I like it. My stepson is autistic and rarely talks and this melody makes me think of him, so I'm happy to have this among my compositions, though I don't know that this will be a way I often write.
Who knows? Life is full of surprises.
"If I knew where the good songs came from, I'd go there more often." Leonard Cohen
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For me it is normal to start with a melody to some rough lyrics in mind at the time and then add harmony .
However when i start composing a song from scratch to a specific style or genre then i start with harmony .
Hope my comments make sense and contribute to this great topic/discussion you started .
Mac Audiophile 2020 2019 2018 2017 USB plus previous years versions macOS Mojave - 10.14.6 @ Aug 16, 2019 iMac i3 3.6 GHz 8GB RAM 4K with Retina display some examples @ sound cloud done with Mac Band and DAW's : https://soundcloud.com/you/tracks
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It goes both ways for me. But, I think I more often create chord progression (I'm a lead guitarist by trade) and then write a melody and lyric simultaneously. I'm 73 years old and still practice guitar at least an hour a day, although I no longer play professionally. I'm pretty much a chord guy, so a lot revolves around that. But, more directly to your question, I'd say 60% of my songs originated from a chord pattern I come up with just by "messing around" and 40% are composed around a pre-written lyric.
I play in multiple genres so I just let that take of itself as the process evolves.
Good question with some interesting comments. Take care and be safe ...
Alan
BIAB 2024 Ultra Plus-all StylePaks*Win11*32GB DDR5*Rhyzen 9745x*AT 2035 Mic*Peavey Nashville 112 Amp*Ibanez ART120* Acoustic/Electric/Washburn D200S Acoustic*Stromberg Monterey Jazz Guitar Loops: https://aldavidmusic.wixsite.com/bestmusicloops
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eddie1261
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Lyrics. Then figure out the prosody angle, making the lyrics work out to have some sort of a cadence that aligns with the pulses and punches of the music. Sometimes that calls for a lot of lyric rewrites because of how the accents on the syllables fall. Like if your end of phrase is, oh, lets say "you are the one that makes my heart TICK", that can't rhyme with "roMANtic" because you don't say "romanTIC." So the phrasing of the lyric will determine my melody. Then the key flavor, which depends on the mood of the story being told. Major Minor  Followed by the key on the keyboard having to be where I can sing it. And that gets lower and lower as I sing less and less. Once the lyrics are sung into a melody, then I decide if there is even a need for harmony, and if that harmony needs to be male, female, above, below, or both. All that said, I know people who get a melody phrase in their head and start there. I know some who get a chord progression in their head and start there. I know others who have idea like "Remember that time we were out looking for our lost dog and while we were in the woods someone stole our car and we had to walk home in the rain and from being cold and wet we got pneumonia and almost did. AND the dog was asleep under the bed and never lost." (That would be a song!) LOL!! So the process is going to vary from person to person AND from situation to situation. And none of them are wrong as long as your path takes you to your destination. You can drive from Dallas to Austin via Houston if you want to as long as you end up in Austin, right?
Last edited by eddie1261; 08/30/20 03:47 AM.
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Just a few sleepless pedantic points.
1. Though I took the OP to define "harmony" as a chord or a chord progression, that is not the be-all end-all definition of harmony.
2. Is counter-point harmony, or multiple melodies that blend?
3. In some periods/styles of classical music is there "melody" at all (if you define melody as a tune) or is it a collection of smaller melodic fragments that play together over time?
4. When a vocal band sings in harmony (picture the Eagles or CSN) oftentimes the melody (or lead melody?) is not so obvious. We might assume it's the highest note being sung at any one time, but is it always?
5. Is it still music when there is no obvious "melody" at all?
**********************
As far as song-writing goes (popular music--actual songs), clearly the most efficient method is lyrics, vocal melody, and chord progression all at the same time, line by line or section by section. That's certainly when I like it best. But if that's not what comes, then I have to do what I have to do to finish one that begins with an element or two "missing".
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All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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