Hi, I sent almost the same email to PG-Music support requesting this. It has all the links. I dumped the email in here. This one has the very first png picture. It effects the Vocal Wizard too. This has an added comment about no tuners going against the strandard.
My second post above references this "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" music pitches table. http://people.virginia.edu/~pdr4h/pitch-freq.html which has it correct (notice the "MC" standing for Middle C at C4). See the comment at the bottom of the table. Also notice this Full size Piano demo video agrees C4 is middle C and the lowest piano key of the video matches LP in the table. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCIEcgRnMZc
Middle C (the fourth C key from left on a standard 88-key piano keyboard) is designated C4 in scientific pitch notation.
C4 may be called Low C by someone playing a Western concert flute, which has a higher and narrower playing range than the piano, while C5 (523.251 Hz) would be Middle C. This technically inaccurate practice has led some pedagogues to encourage standardizing on C4 as the definitive Middle C in instructional materials across all instruments.
Note that for a classical piano and musical theory, the middle C is usually labelled as C4; However, in the MIDI standard definition (like the one used in Apple's GarageBand), this middle C (261.626 Hz) is labelled C3. In practice, a MIDI software can label middle C (261.626 Hz) as C3-C5, which can cause confusions, especially for beginners.
This A440 Wiki agrees. Extract below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_(pitch_standard) A440 (also known as Stuttgart pitch[1]) is the musical pitch corresponding to an audio frequency of 440 Hz, which serves as a tuning standard for the musical note of A above middle C, or A4 in scientific pitch notation. It is standardized by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO 16. While other frequencies have been (and occasionally still are) used to tune the first A above middle C, A440 is now commonly used as a reference frequency to calibrate acoustic equipment and to tune pianos, violins, and other musical instruments.
This scientific notation wiki agrees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation Scientific pitch notation avoids possible confusion between various derivatives of Helmholtz notation which use similar symbols to refer to different notes. For example, "c" in Helmholtz's original notation[2] refers to the C below middle C, whereas "C" in ABC Notation refers to middle C itself. With scientific pitch notation, middle C is always C4, and C4 is never any note but middle C. This notation system also avoids the "fussiness" of having to visually distinguish between four and five primes, as well as the typographic issues involved in producing acceptable subscripts or substitutes for them.
These eight smartphone phone and computer tuners all agree with the ISO music pitches table. With the exception of the BIAB tuner I found no tuners that went against the (ISO Middle C being C4) standard. All the other tuners simply did not report an octave letter. Some of the links use the #t=MinutesSeconds video jump parameter to jump to where I verified it.
It has become important to the Jazz jams Club now because we have a very active vocalist with some key changes requested. Again, it effects the Vocal Wizard too.
I agree that the anomaly of the notation reference should be resolved, especially seeing that even the internal settings of the program contradict themselves (Clef Split Point vs Notation identification).
+1
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
+1 but I believe the idea needs to be refined and further discussed.
What if the program has one preference setting where the user can designate the value of midi note 60, the default clef split location and midi middle C in one setting? This would consolidate multiple settings, reduce user confusion and allow the user to follow the Roland, Yamaha or other middle C standard that they prefer.
From a programming standpoint it is pretty easy. Just store a variable with the octave number that the user chooses to be Middle C (from what we are seeing C4 should be the default). Next there are two options depending on the current programming. Either update the full table there and then or have a function to figure out the correct scientific note to display for each situation. I am in no position to be giving estimates but my guess is 1 to 5 days for a person who knows the code.
What VideoTrack noticed is interesting. It suggests this is a cosmetics logic error meaning they really did mean it to be C4 but the cosmetics are not processing properly. This conflict essentially renders the Vocal Wizard useless except for its reporting the number of semitones of range in the melody. You would have to do extensive experimenting to figure out what it is going to do (not worth the effort - easier manually).
I took a closer look at the Vocal Wizard (see picture which explains the problems).
Up until I did this I was suggesting the vocalist in our group buy BIAB. It would save me work :-) However now I am suggesting he wait until this issue is fixed (I don't want to recommend a product that will confuse him). Even if he does not buy it I will wait until this issue is fixed then I will upgrade. It will save me work.
Now that we have 1 very good vocalist others may join the club and keep me busy :-) The thoughts above get magnified.
Well presented explanation. A tip for some users to better view the details: right-click on the attachment and select 'View Image' to see the image in full size, and use your browser's 'back' button to return.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Well presented explanation. A tip for some users to better view the details: right-click on the attachment and select 'View Image' to see the image in full size, and use your browser's 'back' button to return.
Thanks for the tip VideoTrack. I was wondering how to get a bigger image. I am guessing you are using Win10. My Windows 7 says "View Image in New Tab". Then I have to click the X to close it.
Thanks for the tip VideoTrack. I was wondering how to get a bigger image. I am guessing you are using Win10. My Windows 7 says "View Image in New Tab". Then I have to click the X to close it.
Good point. I'm pretty sure it could be a browser unique thing. I'm using Firefox, but I just checked and Chrome provides the 'View image in new tab' message.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I just tried in FireFox. it shows "View Image Info". It truly does mean info. It gives a lot of extra stuff I personally am not interested in and the image is not much bigger or clearer if at all. In Google chrome however the image is full browser screen and easier to read with no info I personally don't want. I personally prefer Google Chrome for my website because it highlights all ctrl+F search string occurrences where as Firefox does not. This makes the website very good for organizing jams (lots of uses for that ctrl+f search). Chrome also puts tick marks down the right slider bar to indicate hidden occurrences.
I agree that the anomaly of the notation reference should be resolved, especially seeing that even the internal settings of the program contradict themselves (Clef Split Point vs Notation identification).
+1
Hi Videotrack,
I hope you don't mind my adding my couple of penny's worth of comments to this...
The reason C4 (an octave below middle C) is set as the split point usually is because melody notes below middle C will be written as ledger lines on the treble clef rather than as notes in the bass clef.
If you set the split point to C5, then melody notes lower than middle C (C5) will be written on the bass clef.
(That's my experience and understanding, at least.)
I just tried in FireFox. it shows "View Image Info". It truly does mean info.
"View Image Info" is very different to "View Image". I was only referring to the "View Image" option.
Last edited by VideoTrack; 12/18/2003:44 PM. Reason: added screen capture
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Thanks Noel, and your input is always appreciated Separate to the display (which perhaps could be right), the O/P seems to have identified other anomalies with the selection of note pitch. I don't use those features, so am not really qualified to make suggestions. Somehow I think there is an underlying issue. Perhaps PGM could comment?
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I agree that the anomaly of the notation reference should be resolved, especially seeing that even the internal settings of the program contradict themselves (Clef Split Point vs Notation identification).
+1
Hi Videotrack,
I hope you don't mind my adding my couple of penny's worth of comments to this...
The reason C4 (an octave below middle C) is set as the split point usually is because melody notes below middle C will be written as ledger lines on the treble clef rather than as notes in the bass clef.
If you set the split point to C5, then melody notes lower than middle C (C5) will be written on the bass clef.
(That's my experience and understanding, at least.)
All the best, Noel
Thanks Noel. You forced me to analyse the split point setting closer. There is in fact no design conflict within BIAB. I now say this because in order to get the staffs to act such that the only line between the Bass and Treble clef is the Middle C line you have to set the split point to C5. This means that BIAB here again thinks that proper middle C is C5 which goes against everything mentioned in my first post that started this thread.
I think it is going to be very difficult for PG-Music to not put in the feature for users to choose what they consider to be middle C because once available all the evidence suggests the majority will choose C4. The question becomes how difficult is the programming of this new option going to be.
I watched the video, and it reminded me of a concert I attended. George Shearing was performing. He was asked how he knew where Middle C was on the piano, and his answer was: "That's easy, it's the C nearest to the lock"
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
This is an interesting thread. Thanks for all that you've written and discussed Trevor and John.
How all this stuff works in my head is that it's similar to MIDI channels which, in turn, are similar to computer programming arrays.
There are two schools of thought on MIDI channels that still seem to exist today. Often programs let you choose which option best suits. There is the 0-15 school of thought and 1-16 school of thought.
Now why this comes back to computers for me is that if I define (say) a 6 dimension array, then in the couple of languages I'm familiar with, the elements of that array will be numbered 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. For me, this is similar to 0-15 MIDI channels.
The C4/C5 (and even C3) definitions of Middle C are the same. It all depends on how a manufacturer defines the lowest C. That is: C0, C1, C(-1). I'm sure you know all this. I just mention it to give an insight into the above parallel between computer programming and MIDI channels.
This is what I've found out so far for various nomenclature...
Middle C = C5, Band In A Box
Middle C = C5, Fruity Loops
Middle C = C5, Bandlabs Sonar
Middle C = C5, Mixcraft
Middle C = C4, Reaper
Middle C = C4, Roland
Middle C = C3, Cubase
Middle C = C3, Yamaha
Middle C = C3, Kontakt
Middle C = C3, Studio One
I don't know if the same applies to all the above today. I just used Google to help me find the information and I didn't research it thoroughly.
What Reaper uses is an OCTAVE OFF-SET. By entering an integer value -1, 0, 1, etc., it's possible to define what middle C is from the octaves perspective. It is always note 60, though.
I am a programmer and a musician. I was a guitar teacher before I became a programmer. The Job of a top quality Programmer is to make life easier for the client not harder. If they can't do this they should not be a programmer. They should not be using computer limitations to decide what middle C is. Musicians are the ones who decide this. Along the same line they should not be looking at what other programmers have done to decide. Musicians have been around a lot longer than programmers. The people who designed the midi table are clearly top level programmers who understand what I just wrote. If musicians are a bit undecided then a top level programmer needs to make Middle C an option. Based upon Google info and some comments in this thread it appears that 99% of modern musicians have decided Middle C is the C below A 440 (it appears as though 99% of musicians agree with the table).
I agree with you. I also note that some pretty important companies choose to use C3 and C5 as middle C. From what I could find out, those who use C3, C4 and C5 seems a fairly evenly spread field.
That's why I suggested the idea of using an Octave Offset (like Reaper does). This then lets individuals match BIAB to their musical hardware and software.
Unless I've missed something in the thread (which is possible because I skimmed through it), making the middle C reference solely C4 would still mean that many musicians will have BIAB mismatching their DAW and/or their keyboards. For example, a lot of people on these forums use Bandlabs Sonar and it uses C5 for Middle C (the same as BIAB).
The image below shows Reapers adjustment for setting middle C.
Hi Noel, The idea is to change BIAB to allow the user to set Middle C to whatever they want. The default setting I am not sure about. Up to PG-Music.
I am not sure why a DAW would need to know anything about Middle C. I use Audacity. I export the BIAB backing tracks (and the melody). We use those if needed to record our tracks. They get mixed with effects at times. The midi melody is always discarded. We are done.
Another table from a university (Michigan Technological University) that agrees C4 is middle C https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html I like this table because it shows the frequency of C0 is 16.35 (Google says human's can't hear below 20 hz).
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