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Just curious as to how important the lyrics are for those that use BIAB to compose original songs.
Personally, I love BIAB because it has allowed me to concentrate more on my lyrics (which is my real passion) as oppossed to spending time hours/days/weeks trying to create decent tracks that I can pitch to publishers. BIAB has also allowed me to write in genres I never would have imagined before!
How do you rate the importance of lyrics and what methods do you use to improve on writing lyrics (e.g. songwriting books, song evaluation services, BIAB forum, etc.)?
Do you write, re-write, and re-write until you've beaten every line (aka, made it the best it can be)?
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Personally, I love BIAB because it has allowed me to concentrate more on my lyrics (which is my real passion) as opposed to spending time hours/days/weeks trying to create decent tracks that I can pitch to publishers. BIAB has also allowed me to write in genres I never would have imagined before! What you said. Lyrics are very important to me. I rarely write lyrics first. If I do, I very rarely put them to music, although it has happened from time to time.
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Thanks for your response!
You bring up another interesting point to discuss. Do most folks write lyrics or melody first - or - how many write both at the same time?
Do you sometimes do topline writing which is much easier with BIAB?
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Absolutely. I enjoy cowriting as well. I tend to start with ideas of a title or a concept and start writing from there. Every now and then , I pick an idea and write to that idea.
Whatever it takes to get it done.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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What are lyrics says the guy who writes instrumentals  Actually when I or when BobH and I write songs with lyrics the lyrics always come first, then the melody, chords, and finally the style. But the melody, chords, and style order is often changed and could be in any order.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
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We both love well done instrumentals of many genres. Even though I do most of our lyric writing Janice is more attentive to lyrics in the music we listen to. Me? I kinda treat a vocal like an instrument and if it is soulful and exhibits interesting phrasing I can easily attend to that more than the lyric. Of course that might be a function of my long since shot ears  Having blathered that I do like “connect your own dots” lyrics that give the listener an opportunity to possibly participate. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Lyrics are my main source of enjoyment in song writing. Sometimes the lyrics come first and sometimes the music. I think how you really get better is to write more. Write about what you know about. My best songs come to me so fast sometimes it is hard to get them on paper before I forget what they are.
I often try to write to a idea. The girl that left me. The girl that I wish would leave me...lol Playing music on the road. Dark songs about drug use and how it has killed my friends.
Protest song, which I have stopped writing because everyone has got so politically correct.
I have one I am working at the moment. I played it on guitar for my wife and she said NO you can not post that or sing it on the street corner. So I am trying to tone down the ignorant redneck vernacular I actually wanted to use. The song may never come together. Most everything gets re-written to some extent to fit the music. I find that if I have had some chord progression rolling around in my head for weeks, sooner or later a song comes out.
I have played in a bunch of biker bars and could never post some of those songs here. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll is not appropriate for this forum.
I also think that for most of us we are lucky if we ever write a really good song. Tracy Chapman comes to mind. Would you even know who she is if she had not written "Give Me One Reason"
It is your job to write them and my job to listen. I may never understand what your song is really saying but someone will.
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Just curious as to how important the lyrics are for those that use BIAB to compose original songs. How do you rate the importance of lyrics and what methods do you use to improve on writing lyrics (e.g. songwriting books, song evaluation services, BIAB forum, etc.)?
Do you write, re-write, and re-write until you've beaten every line (aka, made it the best it can be)? For me.... Non-cliche subject matter, well fleshed out lyrics with good story line are paramount in my writing drivel....always has been. It may take me weeks to finish the lyrics to my satisfaction, sometimes less. The only method I've used to, as you say 'improve', is to keep writing. Sometimes the music comes first and I'll write on a subject that I feel fits. Sometimes the subject comes first and I'll develop the music that fits the subject. Like most here, I've written from all approaches. Many of my songs reflect personal experience and several are written just using my imagination. I write because it's creative therapy for me. I prefer to write alone....but I have collaborated on a few in the past. I have no illusions that what I write is a masterpiece or that it will have any mass appeal. I don't write love songs, or about political angst/protesting subjects and mentally tune out when I hear one. (just personal taste) That writing approach alone ensures I'll never have mass appeal. If any of my peers here or elsewhere give my songs a listen and comment favorably....that works for me. The only 'evaluation services' I've ever used is on this forum and one other music forum. ( https://www.tdpri.com/forums/) I wish all good luck with their music/song writing endeavors. Did I ever mention 'this song writing stuff is not easy'? Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 08/10/21 10:22 AM.
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I agree very much with what Bud said.
Here's bit more, though. Lyrics are very important to me when what I am doing is going to be a song. They are not important to me at all when what I am doing is not going to be a song. I usually don't know with absolute certainty what it's going to be when I sit down. This was true when I was plunking and/or banging on an acoustic. It's more keenly true when populating data on an .sgu.
"Lyrics" are a different beast than "poems". They are sub-species of a common ancestor. Lyrics are the sound they make, and the rhythm they keep when sung or delivered. They are musical elements above all else. When they are not sung or delivered, they don't qualify as lyrics at all. They simply don't fit the definition.
It might be fun to sit down with another person with some flair for language and a sense of melodic flow and write a lyric. I've never done that. I have, at times, traded lines (with a common melody and cadence) until we both figured we were done. It turned out pretty well, this tug-o-war. I've also gotten and given help with an extra verse, or gotten or given help with polishing a line or more.
It might be fun to take somebody else's words and turn them into a lyric. Other than stealing overheard phrases and a very few suggestions, I've not done much of that either. My hunch is, it might be a collaboration fraught with minefields...but not everybody is a prima donna.
My own #1 rule for songwriting is: Don't be boring. If you are boring, pretend you are someone who isn't boring.
Maybe I'm just more boring than I used to be.
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I work with a lot of other songwriters and so I know the process is different for everyone. There is no "one way."
For myself, I am striving to get into a hypnotic zone that is an invisible poetic territory--where I am channeling a certain spirit that takes hold of me.
As a writer, I know the ritual of ceaseless editing, but I don't do that with songs. For me, lyric writing is a kind of magic or mysticism.
I will strum the guitar or bang on the piano or check out some BIAB demos until the words start to flow. It is important to me that the words and music are inseparable. I don't write them separately, I have to write them together, so that the sound of the words matches the sound of the notes.
This probably sounds spooky, and maybe it is, but I kind of have to go into a trance to write lyrics.
For me it is the most important part. I have been playing the guitar since I was a little kid so I can do that part in my sleep.
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“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Lyrics are very important, and sometimes they more or flows easily while shredding the guitar - and then the BIAB work starts afterwards. Most of the time I sense a mood in a song and know the lyrical direction, but finish 80% of the compositions first - then I have a few phrases or keywords that evolve from that process.
The fine tuning of the lyrics and possible corrections to the composition can be anything from a joyride to a painful process.
Do you ever go through the full process and then ending up feeling that the whole idea got lost "in translation", and then put it into the archive of songs not to publish....after 1 or 2 years you stumble across the song and know exactly what it needs to give the song a re-birth?
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Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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Peters Garage,
I have definitely had song ideas needing time to ferment before the right angle is perceived. It's like a light bulb sometimes, eh?
Personally, my ability to write songs that connect to others has grown exponentially since I joined NSAI and started receiving feedback on my songs.
Dewey
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I often write lyrics first but not always. Never with an instrument in hand. My cowriter and I might write to a scratch tune that I'll replace later but we got away from that after a few years.
If a song, I'll set the lyrics to a tune by myself later. Only then will I pick up an instrument to arrange and harmonize it.
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You learn something new every day! I would never thought of that idea. Cool Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Yes, I have heard others call this "scaffolding"; however, this guy takes it to the next level. Specifically, the exact method this guys discusses would be more geared toward the novice (as the video title implies).
I have used it to write songs in genres I'm not as comfortable in and need guidance. Not using the melody, per se, but the meter and phrasing of the lyrics.
Thanks for sharing!
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Lyrics are very important . Just don't write another freakin' "LOVE" song!!!
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Some say the world has had enough of silly love songs.
But I look around me and I see it isn't so.
Oh no.
Some people ask me who is Gary Weder.
I scratch my head and say that I don't know.
And so I sit right down and write another silly love song
what's wrong with that?
I'd like to know
So here I go
Again!!!!!!
Hmmmmmm........
Yeah, I think this is gonna work.
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I grew up in the time of radio and the beginning of television. That was my only exposure to music. I did not have any exposure to people who were educated in those early years. I was left to my own devices as to what to consider about music.
How could I possibly consider the music in any other way than I liked it or I did not? I did speak English so at least I could understand the words. Lyrics? I am sure at that time I didn't even know what that word meant.
So, from the very beginning "lyrics" were the only thing I could readily relate to. As time passed and I was exposed to people like Bob Dylan I listened to things like this.
"The lampost stands with folded arms, its iron claws attached
To curbs 'neath holes where babies wail though it shadows metal badge
All in all, can only fall with a crashing but meaningless blow
No sound ever comes from the gates of Eden".
If you were alive at the time this came out it would be unusual to not consider Dylan one of the great lyricists. No, I did not read things like " the force that through the green fuse drives the flower" a line from Dylan Thomas. I was a part of a musical culture where all these songs had meaning in our lives far exceeding what I think goes on today. Of course, we didn't have a smartphone to distract us.
Are lyrics important? Well, not so much to Miles Davis or Igor Stravinsky perhaps.
Without lyrics, most popular music could not exist. You can not sing rhythm in the shower.
As to lyrical content or the importance of lyrics for me personally, very few people are going to take notice of anything I write to begin with. My opinion drowns in a sea of humanity.
Billy
EDIT: After looking at this with Grammarly it appears I am uneducated in the use of commas. I also corrected Dylan...lol
Last edited by Planobilly; 08/19/21 01:59 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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