PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Kurzweil K2600XS serious mischief

Hi,

I am using a Kurzweil K2600XS with BIAB. It is such a complicated instrument that I only use it as a keyboard - no sequencing, etc.

I was under the opinion that the instrument sounds on the Kurzweil could not be played into BIAB. However, something strange has happened, and the K2600XS instrument sounds seem (seem is important as I could be mistaken) to be playing in BIAB. This is bad. Bad you say? Yes, because...

1) I don't know how this started. I don't know if I accidentally triggered something on the K2600XS or if I accidentally triggered something in BIAB. Or, was it the gremlins?

2) I have rebooted everything, and no matter what style or what instrument is loaded in BIAB I only get a Honky Tonk Piano sound. Even if I change the BIAB from, say, Bright Piano to Glockenspiel, I still get the Honky Tonk Piano.

3) I can only change the instrument by changing it on the K2600XS. Even so, this does not work as the instrument playing in BIAB is not the same instrument showing on the K2600XS screen. I am not sure, but the instrument playing in BIAB may be 8 or 10 (or whatever) instruments before or behind what is shown on the K2600XS screen.

4) The other day the K2600XS would not turn on. I found the fuse box, looked at the fuse which seemed to be OK, put it back in, and it worked. The BIAB worked ok after this, so I don't know if this could have affected it or not.

5) I don't know whether this has any bearing on the problem or not, but I just noticed that a few of my instruments do not play on the K2600XS by itself.

It probably has nothing to do with the problem, but about the time this happened the BBW Title Toolbar popped up on my screen. I cannot make it close by closing BIAB or rebooting my computer.

I have just recently cleared up latency problems by installing Coyote Forte and ASIO4ALL v2. When I load BIAB a popup says ASIO is loaded and it says in the lower right of the screen when it loads, Bbw 512 samples @44100 HZ.

I do not know what else to tell you, other that I am very technologically challenged, and that I do not know what else to do. The program is unusable as is.


Thanks,


Natchez Too

Go to your preferences area and see what MIDI Device is being used. If you lost power, BiaB may have rest it to something. Sounds it got set to the external MIDI device.

In the Preferences section you can also change BiaB back to MME from ASIO if you want. If you are using the keyboard to play sounds from Forte you will probably not want to change it though.

This is a "midi for noob's" question and a complete answer would require writing a book in this reply. To try to keep it really simple, midi requires channels. In Biab a particular instrument track transmits the data on a midi channel between 1-16. Go into options>preferences/midi/channels and it tells you what instruments are on what midi channels. Then your Kurz has to be set to receive the same channels or you hear the wrong instruments. I think they call it multitimbral mode but it's in your book. But wait, there's more. The Kurz has several different banks of sounds and you have to set Biab to transmit the correct bank info. This is in the Biab help file under "patch maps".
To avoid all this set the Kurz to "GM mode" if it has that. I believe it has a GM bank of instruments but you will have to look that up in the Kurz manual. If you can do that, then you're done because Biab defaults to GM. That will get you started but some of the best Kurz sounds are not in the GM bank so that's where the patch map comes in.

When you refer to the Forte DXi and ASIO or MME, that's for software synths, your Kurz is a hardware synth. Two completely separate things. MME/ASIO makes no difference when you're playing a hardware synth but it can with software like the Forte.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about then you're going to have to do some serious reading about midi both in the Biab help files and your Kurz manual and online. You can also do a forum search using the keywords "patch map". There's a lot of treads talking about patch maps and the basic info applies to any hardware synth.

Bob

Bob and rharv,

Thanks.

I had to have a BIAB tech on the phone help me install ASIO and Coyote Forte. The tech said that I had to isntall them to correct the latency problems I had, and it that did. The tech(s) knew that I had a Kurzwiel K2600 as we discussed it at the time. They did not comment about the sofware sytny vs. hardware synth. It worked perfectly after we made the Asio and Coyote Forte installation.

Bob, I have little to no idea about what you said, and I am quite sure that I am not up to the task if simple things to not get me back to where I was. That is all I want. I don't care if I never get the Kurzweil sounds through BIAB. I just need to be able to use it.

rharv, I don't know where the sounds in BIAB were coming from before. I was using my K2600 and assumed they were from BIAB.

I will attempt the things that you both mention. Thanks.

Oh, woe is me.

Jerry (Natcheztoo)

BOB,
I WAS ON THE ROAD TODAY AND THEREFORE THE TARDINESS IN RESPONDING. I’LL TRY TO ADDRESS YOUR THOUGHTS BY INTERSPERSING REPLIES BELOW:

This is a contradictory statement but I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say. You mean as far as playing Biab midi tracks is concerned you don't need your Kurz, you're ok with using the Forte DXi for sound?

NO. THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT. I DON’T HAVE ANY OTHER KEYBOARD SO I AM LIMITED TO THE KURZ AT THE MOMENT. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO USE THE FORTE DXI FOR SOUND.

That's one thing and the simplest way to go. When you talked to support and you installed the Forte, you probably have that set up within Biab and are using it now for sound?

WELL, THEY TOLD ME THAT I NEEDED ASIO4ALL AND COYOTE FORTE, AND THEY HELPED ME SET IT UP. THE REASON THEY SAID I NEEDED TO WAS BECAUSE OF A LAG BETWEEN THE TIME I HIT A KEY ON THE KURZ AND THE TIME IT WAS HEARD IN BIAB.

When you say you just need to be able to use your Kurz, use it for what? You mean you want to be able to play along with Biab or do you want to record what you play into Biab?

I NEED TO BE ABLE TO RECORD MY MELODIES AND SONGS INTO BIAB. I DO NOT REALLY CARE ABOUT PLAYING ALONG WITH BIAB. SORRY FOR NOT BEING PRECISE.

Those are two very different functions. One only requires you to plug the audio outputs from the Kurz into your sound system and you can play along as much as you want, your Kurz has nothing to do with your computer in that case, it's like playing along with any record you might have. If you actually want to record what you play into your computer through Biab, then you need midi cables and a whole lesson about how to set that up.

I HAVE THE MIDI CABLES AND IN THE PAST RECORDED A GOOD MANY SONGS INTO BIAB. THEN I GOT WINDOWS 7 I HAD A DELAY OR LATENCY PROBLEM. THE THINKING BY THE BRAINS AT BIAB WAS THAT THE DELAY OR LATENCY WAS CAUSED BY THE UPGRADE TO WINDOWS 7. THEREFORE, WE PUT ASIO4ALL AND COYOTE FORTE ON AND IT BEGAN WORKING AGAIN.

Here's a confusing part for you. Your Kurz is two things, a synthesizer and a keyboard controller. The keyboard controls the built in synth inside the K2600. In the menus inside the Kurz you can bypass the internal synth and just use the physical keyboard to control a different external synth ie the Forte synth inside your computer via a midi cable. That means you're not using any of the Kurz sounds, only the Forte's sounds, you can play it or record it. That scenario is where the latency problem comes in. There's a built in delay when you try to use an external keyboard to control a software synth inside your computer. ASIO allows you to adjust that latency down low enough that you don't notice it. However, (remember I said this gets confusing?)there is no latency when you use an external hardware synth like your Kurz so then ASIO or no ASIO is completely irrelevant.

BOB, YOU SEEM TO KNOW A BIT ABOUT THE KURZ. I JUST PUT THE TWO MANUALS ON TOP OF EACH OTHER AND MEASURED THEM; THEY ARE 2 ½ INCHES THICK. THEY ARE CHOCK FULL OF SUCH MUMBO-JUMBO AS THIS: THE IMPUT INTO EFFECT C IS CONTROLLED BY 2 PARAMETERS NAMED A/B ->* AND */DRY ->C WHERE A, B, AND C CORRESPOND TO THE NAMES OF EFFECTS A, B, AND C. THE FIRST PARAMETER MIXES EFFECT A AND B INTO A TEMPORARY BUFFER REPRESENTED BY THE SYMBOL “*”. BOB, I DID NOT SEARCH FOR THIS. IT WAS ON THE PAGE OF ONE OF THE MANUALS WHEN I OPENED IT. THERE IS NO HOPE FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND THIS STUFF.

You said you know very little about this stuff and you may not be too excited about learning it either. If you can live without doing anything at all with your Kurz and just play Biab inside your computer then you've got your Forte and you're done but, and this is a big but, as soon as you want to hook up your Kurz in any way with your PC, it's school time and that's just the way it is. Time to open the books and start reading about basic midi, midi channels, different modes in your Kurz, msb/lsb, patch maps and how to hook up the midi cables and the audio cables.

I DON’T KNOW HOW I EVER GOT THE KURZ TO WORK WITH BIAB AND THE MIDI CABLES. BUT IT DID. AND, THEN IT DID AGAIN AFTER INSTALLATION OF ASIO AND FORTE. I BELIEVE THAT SOMEONE WAY BACK THERE AT BIAB HELP (ON THE PHONE WITH ME AND MY LOCAL COMPUTER GURU [BY NOT A MUSIC GUY]) SIAD THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET THE KURZ SOUNDS AND INSTRUMENTS TO PLAY IN BIAB. HECK, I DIDN’T CARE! I COULD PLAY A SONG INTO BIAB AND END UP WITH A BAND AROUND IT.

THEN, THE OTHER DAY, I GET THESE WEIRD SOUNDS FROM BIAB AND REALIZE THAT THEY ARE KURZ INSTRUMENTS. WHOA!
JUST BEFORE THIS MY KURZ WOULD NOT TURN ON. I WENT TO THE YAHOO KURZ GROUP AND INQUIRED. THEY SAID THE FUSE MIGHT HAVE BEEN BLOWN. I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO FIND IT, INSPECT IT AND NOT FIND IT DAMAGED, REINSTALL IT, AND WHOOPEE!, THE KEYBOARD WORKED AGAIN. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS EVENT IS THE CULPRIT BEHIND ALL OF THIS? I HAVE GONE BACK TO THE YAHOO KURZ GROUP, BUT NOBODY HAS ANSWERED. I HAVE QUERIED THEM IN THE PAST ABOUT KURZ WITH BIAB QUESTIONS. THERE IS HARDLY EVER AN ANSWER, AND I SUSPECT THAT NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE USING A KURZ WITH BIAB.

Oh yeah, Bob's mantra that people have read here for years now. Midi is not audio, audio is not midi. That's one of the first things new people get confused about when they try to use an external keyboard/synth like yours, they think the audio is going through the midi cables. It's not.

WELL, AT LEAST I DID NOT THINK THAT. I THOUGHT THAT I WAS JUST USING THE KURZ TO TRIGGER THE SOUNDS WITHIN BIAB.
DOES ANY OF THIS HELP ENOUGH TO POSSIBLY DIRECT ME TO A SOLUTION? IF NOT, I’LL BE GLAD TO TRY AGAIN. MY GREATEST FEAR IS THAT SOMETHING ON THE KURZ CHANGED AND THAT BEAST IS BEYOND MY KEN.
THANK YOU FOR TAKING TIME TO REPLY.

JERRY KROUSE

Bob

I suggest looking at your MIDI interface software drivers and see if there is a latency/buffer size setting. If your latency is a full second, you likely have a hardware issue.

Jerry, I feel your pain man. That page in the Kurz manual is talking about setting up an effect like reverb or delay for one of the patches. Don't worry about it it's irrelevant to what we're talking about. Since you already had the Kurz working through your computer using midi cables I want you to download and read this:

Version 4 GM users guide

Click on the Pdf icon and it opens up. This may already be in your Kurz manual, if not then this goes with it so in that case save it to your desktop. Since Version 4 came out in 2003 your keyboard probably is V4 now but if not this describes how you can upgrade it. I've had Kurzweils for years, you can go to their website and download these upgrades. V4 gives you the GM Mode I was talking about earlier. Trust me Kurzweil's GM sounds should blow the Forte away and you will be a happy camper. Read this and let me know what you think.

Bob

Bob,

My Kurz is Version 4. I just checked. I am downloading the K2600 Version 4 (GM Mode) User's Guide and will try to understand it.

However, I have been thinking about contacting BIAB Help and telling them that I'd like to talk to the person with the most Kurz K2600 experience they have. Maybe...

It seems to me that BIAB and the Kurz were working before, and if you consider the Kurz instruments are coming through BIAB currently, it is still kinda, sorta, maybe working.

Can it be too serious?

Jerry

Bob,

The latest sad story...

I followed the "Screen shots" included in the V. 4 (GM Mode) User's Guide (page 3). If things are not intuitive I bounce off them. I found the screen on my Kurz, pressed the GM soft button to call up the GM page, and when I saw that GM was off (unlike the second "screen shot" on page 3, I turned it to "ON."

Just below where I switched it to on it says in the "screen shot":

GM Studio : 500 GM1 Room.

Mine says: 500 Not Found

In fact, scrolling through it none of the 500 - 505 Rooms or Halls, etc. mentioned on page 3 could be found.

Then I went to the Master2 GM screen (on the bottom of page 3), and since mine said the same thing, I left it as is.

BIG PROBLEM: When I got though with this nothing seemed to have changed with BIAB. However, when I went back to program mode to access my instruments (800 - 900 of them), I was at 400 and it said: 400 Not Found. Worse than that, all the instruments from 199 (just above 400 now) through 730 are missing. BTW, all this stuff was already loaded on my Kurz when I bought it used.

I would just like to get back to where I used to be (Didn't Merle Haggard write that or something like that?).

I am deathly afraid of hitting any RESET buttons on the Kurz. Do you have any ideas about this.

Jerry

P.S. Thanks for sticking with me this long.

Yeeahhh, I didn't try to read this whole thing last night. The thing is Kurzweils are top of the line full pro keyboards. They're designed for players who really know this stuff. You probably got a good price on this keyboard and it does sound great but it really isn't the best thing for you. Personally if I were you, I would sell it and get something a whole lot simpler that sounds almost as good. If you want to do that we've all got several good suggestions for you.

I just read this on page 2 of that download:

<There are several GM soundsets available, depending on which option ROMs you have in your K2600. If you have previously obtained a GM soundset for your K2600, you will have to get the new version that is designed to work with GM Mode.>

I don't know just how far you want to go with this. What they're saying is you have to find out if you have any option ROM's installed and which ones. Then with that info, you go to the Kurzweil website (I guess) and you download the correct GM soundset patches that matches those ROMs. Then using either a disc or maybe USB install it into your Kurz. I have no clue exactly how that works, you will just have figure it out. then that thing about the GM500. Most keyboards have one simple default effects program for GM and you can change it if you want. Being a pro level keyboard it looks like your Kurz is giving you several choices. Pro's like choices, you don't need them but there they are. Something else for you to have to figure out.

Sigh, I didn't want to have to go this far with you, I was hoping all you had to do was push a couple of buttons and voila, you're in GM mode and that's it. Ok, you don't have to use GM mode, that Kurz has tons of great sounds but they're not GM so Biab will not simply automatically use them. This is probably why some patches didn't sound right, like a piano sounding like a handclap or whatever. To access those sounds in Biab you need a patch map. PG already has a bunch of patch maps including a couple of Kurzweil ones but I don't know if they will work with your K2600 or not. Wait, it gets better. Those patch maps are not created by PG, they're created by users as a convienience to other users and PG simply posts them for all of us. No guarantees they're correct. There's instructions in the help files about how to create a patch map. It's complicated.

I'm at work and have to go for now. Try Ron's suggestion to simply hook up the keyboard to your computer and play the Forte.

Bob

If you hear a lag (latency) between when you hit the note and when you hear the sound you are most likely using the Forte DXi for the synth sounds; not the Kurz..

Sounds like (if you want to hear the Kurz sounds) you need to select the correct MIDI Output Device in Preferences. Otherwise you are hitting the key on the kurz, which sends a MIDI message to the Forte (inside the computer) which triggers the sound. This is the only reason support would suggest using ASIO; it drasticly cuts down the lag or latency..

If you have the MIDI go into the computer from the kurz (to get recorded) and output from the computer MIDI going back to the kurz to generate the sound it should be instantaneous.

I can resolve this easily. I will send you my mailing address in a private message and you can send me the Kurzweil... LOL!!!

People always ask me "HOW did you get to be so funny?"