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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
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>>> NOWHERE on that page did I find a place where I could type in the simple keyword "bossa".
Correct. There isn't a filter to type a word and restrict the styles displayed to the searched word. Yes, that would be a good feature, and yes, some other windows in BB have it, but NO, the stylepicker doesn't have it, and we're very sorry about that. Adding a filter is something we plan to add.
What the stylepicker does have to find bossas is this:
- click on the "Latin" category. You now see a list of latin styles, and most of them are bossas up top. Press the search button, and type bossa if you want to find one, and it will jump to the next one in the list.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I agree with some of this because we're drowning in a sea of riches. You want to see styles? Check out Norton Music's site. He's got styles, tons and tons of styles, enough styles to drown us all 15 times over.
As to naming them, I really don't know any better way to do it guys. When you have thousands of styles how many changes can you make in a short descriptive string of characters to describe the thing? I don't have the answer to that one.
It's logical to use the language of the genre. When we open our printer properties we always see the print cue and landscape and portrait. If you've never seen that before you can very well ask yourself what the heck is a print cue or portrait and why can't they speak plain English? Well, if you're talking printers you use the language of print shop operators and for the last 100 years they've used the term "landscape" so when software developers created a software emulation of a printing press what other term would you suggest they use other than "landscape"? That's the industry standard name for it and that's it. Same thing here with music production software. We use terms like faders, effects inserts, side chaining, condenser mic, DB, compressor/limiter, freq analysis etc, because those are the terms used in recording studios. If you don't understand those terms yet you've bought yourself some recording software then I guess it's time to go to school, isn't it? It makes no sense to ask the software developers to suddenly change all that industry standard terminology.
If we're looking for a guitar picking country style and see one called "Chet" and don't know who Chet Atkins was that's our problem isn't it? What else is PG going to call it if it emulates his style of picking? Perhaps we would prefer calling it "The greatest country picker who ever lived" style? I mean if you're looking at a country music style and can't figure out who George is likely to be then Google it. I'm a jazzer and I'm still pretty sure that's George Strait but it could be George Jones I guess and as a jazzer I'm also in awe of how great a player Chet Atkins was. I didn't have a clue who Brent Mason was either until Peter announced his new Real Tracks and half the members of this forum went nuts over them. I put my finger to my temple and went "duh, this guy must be Somebody" and checked him out. Those RT's are indeed killer and I learned something new. What a concept.
I think we all have figured out by now that unless PG has obtained permission from those artists to use their full names then they can't use their full names for legal reasons, right? Think about that for a minute and now how would you describe the styles?
Just keep working with the program, find your own way around it and put your suggestions in the wishlist.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
NOWHERE on that page did I find a place where I could type in the simple keyword "bossa".
+1 for being able to type "waltz", "bossa" or "7/4" and restricting the listed styles to just those styles. It just makes sense.
Other than that, I can usually get "close enough" to the sound I want within 30 minutes or so. Even if it is just the bass and drums. Then I can add my own instruments or search for RT's that work.
Would also be nice to add a midi "piano" part to a style that doesn't have one, without going through the "build a style" routine. I have not been too successful in that area. (but I understand midi parts are tied to styles, so I know that could be complicated).
Great program, in my opinion -- no matter the shortcomings.
Kevin
P.S. Even though BIAB can be used as a compositional tool, the ability to bend BIAB completely to your will is tough if you are alt country and things like that. It can be done, but I think it takes a lot of experience. So I only expect BIAB to take me "most" of the way there (or at least 1/2 way).
Last edited by Kemmrich; 07/21/11 03:57 AM.
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Hi, Eddie -
I was going to suggest to you a workaround, but I believe I found a possible bug in the process. I was going to suggest that you click on filter to filter down the results as much as you need (which will give you a workable subset to use) and then go back to the main StylePicker screen and use the search function. Search allows you to specify the words to look for (and although not intuitive, the "G" button next to the Search button is for "search aGain" to find the next item that meets your criteria. However,....
When you click on Search, the screen goes back to displaying all styles, not the filtered list you created (even though the Filter button still says that the filter is on). If you click on the Filter button, you will find that all the filters have been reset to null.
It seems to me that after I filter the list, I should be able to use the search button limited to the filtered list that is displayed, not the complete list of all styles (unless of course I am currently unfiltered and am seeing all the styles).
I hope that made sense.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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Quote:
Correct. There isn't a filter to type a word and restrict the styles displayed to the searched word. Yes, that would be a good feature, and yes, some other windows in BB have it, but NO, the stylepicker doesn't have it, and we're very sorry about that. Adding a filter is something we plan to add.
It's great to see your response Peter, I look forward to having an improved filter feature. When you implement it there needs to be some way of incorporating all third party styles into the filter not just those issued by PG, even if we have to flag them ourselves when we put them into the style folder.
Quote:
What the stylepicker does have to find bossas is this:
- click on the "Latin" category. You now see a list of latin styles, and most of them are bossas up top. Press the search button, and type bossa if you want to find one, and it will jump to the next one in the list.
This current method of filtering has a problem because once you exhaust all the bossa styles in the latin category, it starts to highlight any style with the word "bossa" anywhere in the stylepicker window and some of the styles highlighted are not really bossa. Any new filtering system should only find genuine bossa styles, not those that happen to have the word bossa somewhere in the description.
Thanks
Tony
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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now why didnt we all think of that..sorry Peter I did and its as easy as you can get.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I was going to suggest that you click on filter to filter down the results as much as you need (which will give you a workable subset to use) and then go back to the main StylePicker screen and use the search function.
That's the thing, John. Click filter and then click what on the EIGHT options in the filter box? There is too much "local knowledge" needed. The first thing is 1/8th or 1/16th. So what do I choose there? And why? There are 8th and 16th in EVERY song and style.
Once again, I love this software. It does what it does well. I am not anti BIAB. I own it, I use it, I love what it does.
But simple features need to be simple. Intuitive searching is a simple, basic feature when you reach a point where there are literally thousands of styles to pick from. Peter did address this in an earlier reply and I hope they work on this soon. Every time I go upstairs to my studio, I spend 2 hours making music and 3 hours trying to figure out some nuance of BIAB to use in that 2 hours I am creating.
ctl+f - search box - enter search string - enter - find it. Simple. That's how search works.
But again, kudos to Peter. He responded and said they will look to add a simple search. In the meantime....
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Eddie,
You have raised a salient point. If BIAB is to be used as a production tool (I am using the term production in the larger sense of an industrial tool, or of an assembly line) then workflow has to be optimized. And you're right; it isn't. The two reasons have been laid out here: the vast amount of data to go through, and the lack of an easy way to do that.
Now, I'm going to say a hard thing. I don't mean to offend, and you've demonstrated that you're a big boy (one whom I have come to respect as I have gotten to know you). So here it is: It's a poor workman who blames his tools.
There is a highly-respected professional, Harvey Gerst, on these forums who uses BIAB to do exactly what you are trying to, and in the production environment of a working studio. I suggest you get with him to find out how he makes it work, because he does, spectacularly, and on the clock.
So, despite the limitation you cite, what you are trying to do is not only possible, but being done by Harvey and others. Visit the users' showcase for examples. I don't think there is any secret to how they do it. I just don't see a way around investing non-productive time to simply listen and take notes.
I mean "invest" literally, because it produces great returns. I mean "take notes," too. Everyone uses BIAB slightly differently. What we have to do is create our own manual by taking notes on processes and content so that we can easily repeat the things we want to do on a regular basis, and so that we can remember what we liked as we went through Styles and Instruments.
Eddie, you are obviously the equal of almost anyone here. Someone once said that if you don't have a goal, all you see are obstacles, and that if you do, all you see are challenges. You clearly have a goal. I am inviting you to accept the continuing challenge of BIAB. You and BIAB have a great deal to offer. I look forward to seeing the results.
Respectfully,
Richard
Last edited by Ryszard; 07/21/11 10:39 AM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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He desrves enough respect that we should try to get his name right; Harvey Gerst  itrstudio.com
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Just an outsider to this conversation about naming of styles. I for one like the way Peter has some of these styles arranged and named. I'm more of a country/gospel singer/player and when I first set up a song that I want an arrangement of to back me up, I look for tempo and peoples name like George, Chet, Berry, etc. I find that it is a great place to start to evidentually come up with a style that will, in the end, be similar to the on I want. By the way, if you click on the memo button after you have selected a style, it will usually tell you that the style is fashion after George Jones, Chet Adkins, Chuck Berry, etc. just sayin'. Thanks Peter.
Last edited by David Walker; 07/21/11 11:01 AM.
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Jazzmammal/Bob, the naming isn't what gets the hairs on my neck up. It's the inability to quickly search for something fairly specific. Note I said "quickly". I wanted to try and chart Jobim's "Wave" last night. Onbiously I wanted a "bossa" style for the right groove. One hour later, I gave up (Not because of the one hour. It was almost midnight and approaching 90 degrees up there.) And all I wanted to do was find "bossa". If they were all together, okay I would have been able to skim. But they are scattered.
Rysart/Richard, I agree 100%. I am not BLAMING the tools. I am making the observation that I don't know how to use the tools yet as well as someone with years of experience with this program. (I faced similar frustration at the help desk when people would ask how to do simple things. I stifled the urge to say "If you don't know how to do that you probably should have a computer at all." MANY times. I would just like to be able to "change the blade in the circular saw" without reading 6 pages of instruction. (My analogy for the simplified search box.)
I will get it eventually. I am just in a time crunch right now. This CD has to be done and ready to record by fall because three of the players are music teachers. One in junior high, 2 in college. Once school starts, I lose them.
"Wave" was just last night's example. For my last song, I spent (I swear to you) THREE HOURS sampling styles because the names and example songs made no sense. I had to sample almost 200 styles before I found one and that one was just close to what I needed.
But Peter has acknowledged that they will address this and look to add a simpler method of searching.
These forums are SUCH a great opportunity to talk and learn! Love it!!!
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Quote:
I am just in a time crunch right now. This CD has to be done and ready to record by fall because three of the players are music teachers. One in junior high, 2 in college. Once school starts, I lose them.
This is the problem and I'm not blaming you, you didn't create the time crunch but you are frustrated because you're trying to use a new tool that you're not familiar with on a project with a very short deadline. That is a recipe for disaster. I totally understand too because I've done it. Or, more to the point, tried to. A few years ago my good friend Eddie Greely who's since died was having health problems and I subbed for him on a solo gig so I put Biab on my laptop and thought I could use the Conductor feature live and do the gig that way. I had only read about that, not actually done it. Well, yes it's possible but not in a week with me still doing my full time job. It wasn't doing what I thought it should and like you I was burning up the paint on my walls with juicy epithets. I was running out of time so I fired up my old rusty, dusty Alesis SR16 drum machine and did the gig that way. That Alesis with just me playing keys sucks compared to what Biab sounds like but I was out time and that's it. A few weeks later I had it all figured out and now I know how to do a live gig using the Conductor but you can't all of sudden put that kind of pressure on yourself with a brand new product you're not intimitely familiar with. I'll say this though it does focus your attention and you can learn a lot quickly as long as you keep away from that ammo box...
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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FWIW, you still can make a csv-file and import that in a spread sheet or data base. Then you have many options available to search and add colums according to your needs.
While a search option in the dialog might be preferable, this is a workaround that speeds up the search for styles in my case...
Guido
Edit: corrected type sread sheet to spread sheet
Last edited by GHinCH; 07/21/11 02:28 PM.
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
FWIW, you still can make a csv-file and import that in a spread sheet or data base. Then you have many options available to search and add columns according to your needs.
While a search option in the dialog might be preferable, this is a workaround that speeds up the search for styles in my case...
Guido
Well there ya go. Is there a way to export the style picker database to *.csv with the memo fields and associated demo/location? That way I could write a simple little program to search the styles for "waltz" or "bossa" and play the associated demo right then and there. That would suffice until PG Music incorporates the text search.
Kevin
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I hope you plan on passing that this way ..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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There sure is, in the style picker window you can export to csv. I didn't find a way to filter the export. And you can search for any word in the name. This also goes across all styles. There is the search function and right beside it there is a repeat search function.
Guido
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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I will try this too. Once is it in csv you can pull it into Excel and massage the data any way you want, then sort it.
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I just played around a little: You can search for almost anything in name and memo. The search seems to be limited to 32 characters.
It would be really cool if we could search also for RT372 or M34 to find certain instruments or RealTracks. (Or if these data could be part of the export to csv-files.)
Guido
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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This is gonna be cool (in best beavis voice) ... salivating ..
I have *some* csv/database experience, if I can help at all.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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