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*edit sorry so long -
My little home town did a little civil disobedience last week. It was fun, and got the point across, I think. It was a beautiful thing that pulled the community together in a staggering way, It was really amazing. Federal government authority tried to shutdown a free fun volunteer event that used to consist of a couple hundred people getting together to float down the river. Once they started to press charges on people and make it illegal to float, it tuned into an event where 2500 people showed up to float, 10,000 showed up along the river to watch, and local businesses had bands playing along the river, beer tents, you name it. It was a party with a purpose. People even ran volunteer shuttles from the end point back to where cars were parked.
The coast guard went as far as to shutdown the river, meaning no boating volunteers could show up to help (of which there were always dozens; there has never been a fatality or serious injury in 20 years due to volunteers and now they had excluded them). They said only law enforcement boats could be out there, so the thousands of sspectators were there with cameras in hand to see how law enforcement was going to handle it. Happy to say with this kind of pressure they simply helped people that floated out too far. Even the ones that floated across to Canada accidently. They even ended neeeding a helicopter to keep an eye on all the floaters that showed up.
It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.
Last edited by rharv; 08/27/11 03:22 AM.
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Quote:
It’s not enough to ask what’s legal, … but to ask what is right.
and herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"
And in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law (based on the majority's idea of what is right)
[rant]
Unfortunately, the majority seems to be overruled at every turn by judges attempting to legislate from the bench.
When a few powerful people override the will of the many, that ain't democracy, that's oligarchy, and its just a step away from the dark ages when the nobles had total control of the peasants, and the peasants had no voice at all.
[/rant]
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regarding the law about "unfinished product" leaving the country...
One company's "finished product" is another company's "raw material"
The company whose finished product is iron ore, sells it to the steel mill.
To the steel mill the ore is not finished, it is a resource. AT the end of the steel mill's process, their final product is steel in one form or another
Other businesses buy the steel as a resource for their products, for example, car parts. Which get sold to other companies who use the parts to make assemblies, which get sold to other companies who buy the assemblies and make complete cars.
Bottom line is, which product is the finished product? It depends on your company's charter. If your company starts with whole trees and processes them to a point where specialty sizes of wood are sold to other manufacturers, then what you sell is your company's finished product.
If the question of "final product" is the crux of this government action, that's just crazy!! ESPECIALLY regarding chunks of wood! Such a law, if interpreted the way it appears to be interpreted in this case, would effectively prevent all export of wood or other natural resources
(bonus question: "what is the end product of government intervention?")
[ ] the good of the citizens
[ ] the control of the citizens
[ ] other ________________________
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I was researching this law a little bit. Apparently, the Lacey Act of 1900 (designed to protect species from overhunting and prevent the interstate transportation of certain plants) was expanded in 2008 to include logging.
I was afraid I was going to have to blame this on Bush but...
He vetoed the Farm Bill that this expansion was attached to. Twice! (Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008.)
Bush's veto was overridden by congress.
Yep. Guitar players can truly blame the democrats for this mess. For the record, I am the proud owner of two fantastic, American-made Gibson electric guitars.
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Fear the government that fears your guitars.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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If our elected officials would honor and support the US Constitution, most if not all of these kind of problems could not exist.
The Constitution needs to be honored, followed, obeyed - and *ENFORCED* ACROSS THE BOARD.
Any other situation is headed towards a situation that will be very ugly, I'm afraid.
History shows us that tyrants always underestimate the power of the good people.
While sitting out this storm, I took advantage of it to let my two grandsons view my copy of, "The Patriot" last night. With a little bit of explanation and explaining from Grandpa along the way through. Funny how the kids get it right away. I guess it takes years of sorry schooling and maybe a post graduate degree before equivocation replaces decision process.
--Mac
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Wouldn’t Obama be proud for part of his legacy to be taking down Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Fender guitar companies for “letter of the law” instead of “spirit of the law” violations ?????????????
Filing false docunents us not a letter of the law vs a spirit of the law violation and Martin, Fender and Taylor have not been accused of any wrong doing.
Keith
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Rharv, Quote:
It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.
Way to go rharv! That’s exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. It’s great to see a community rally together and remind authorities who they actually work for.
………………………………………………………..
Pat,
Quote:
herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"
Glad to see you weigh in. Rharv’s communities civil disobedience is a perfect example of doing what is right vs. what is legal, so I don’t think it needs much comment, especially since I’ve been talking so much.
Quote:
in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law
I’m not taking you to task my friend, but this is incorrect. We don’t live in a democracy, but a representative Republic, so voters have very little, if any, say over individual laws. We elect representatives to make those decisions for us. They are then answerable to the voters for their actions.
Democracy in its purest form is nothing more than “mob rule”. I like this quote from Wiki:
Quote:
In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, compared republican government to democratic government, and found democracy wanting.
Our Constitution is meant to prevent the “majority” from taking away the rights of the “few” and to limit the powers of the government. The government should fear the “people”, and not the other way around.
Shifting gears a little, your treatise on “finished product” vs. “raw materials” was spot on and fits the Gibson situation perfectly.
……………………………………………………………….
Mac,
“The Patriot” is one of my all time favorite movies and should be required viewing in our schools. It lays out the sacrifices and hard decisions made by our forefathers better than anything I’ve ever seen.
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Keith, Quote:
Some facts that the Gibson Press release fails to mention:
You appear to be assuming that Gibson is guilty, while I’m assuming they are innocent. I think the truth will be found to be similar to what Pat Marr laid out in his definition of “finished goods” vs. “raw materials”. Hence, my letter of the law vs. spirit of the law comment.
My inclusion of Martin, Taylor and Fender is simply a logical extension of “who’s next” on the government hit list if they’re successful in their assault on Gibson.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 08/27/11 10:13 AM.
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This is the "wood" version of RIAA suing grandmothers to make a statement to the public.
If this government has nothing better to do than raid a company like Gibson but NOT raid Fender, Martin, Taylor etc.... then this is selective enforcement meant to send a message. Go after the biggest "drug dealer" and the little guys on the street corner will get the message too.
Economy slow? Let's invent reasons to collect fines from people. Let's see what we can do to chase ANOTHER business out of the USA and have them move to some place where the laws are a little less draconian.
I really hate authority.
This is the same government that killed 58,000 of my comrades in Vietnam and sprayed the rest of us with Agent Orange, which caused diabetes in many of us? And that same government that now treats us like crap when we need their help? Now they want to ruin our guitars?
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Please do take note of the political party that was in charge during the Vietnam conflict...
--Mac
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Quote:
Please do take note of the political party that was in charge during the Vietnam conflict...
--Mac
Hmmmm... Mr Kennedy, then Mr Johnson, and it ended when Mr Nixon got in. And now we are back to "Let's keep them employed as soldiers rather than bring them back to no jobs, all while keeping people who make guns, bullets, boots, vehicles, uniforms, and prepacked meals working..."
Another "Hmmmm"......
Wasn't part of the last campaign "We will end the war. Democrat = no war, Republican = more war"? Seems like in his 3rd year at the helm, we are still there..... wouldn't that amount to "My whole sales pitch was a lie"?
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Gibson used to use Brazilian rosewood until importation of that wood was banned. Importation of Brazilian Rosewood was banned in 1992 until CITES (some exceptions to be discussed). It was and is considered the king of tonewoods for acoustic guitars, both because of its tonal qualities and the wonderful chocolate brown color with great swirling grain. All of those $200,000 -$500,000+ pre-war Martin D-28s that are considered the Stradivarius of acoustic guitars are Brazilian Rosewood with Adirondack Spruce tops (with forward-shifted bracing). Again, although Gibson used some Brazilian Rosewood, Gibson's always been more into maple and mahogany acoustic guitars. It's still possible to get Brazilian (lower-quality Brazilian) at a high price, but the luthier has to have a lot of paperwork showing that the wood came from a tree cut down before 1992. That era of getting Brazilian from old stumps is an era that's pretty well passed, however. Madagascar Rosewood was illegal to import (under Madagascar rules, I believe) for years, but a coup made it possible to get some into the country over the last decade or so. It's the closest thing, tonally and in looks, to Brazilian that we've seen. East Indian is nice, but nothing like Madagascar or Brazilian Rosewood. All of that is said with respect to using the wood as a tonewood, and not just as a fretboard or the veneer on a headstock. And using Franklin Titebond instead of hide glue makes a difference, I believe. Think of pulling away old white glue. It still has a rubbery feel to it. Hide glue is brittle. When you want to transfer vibration from one wood component to another, rubbery white glue, no matter how well cured and now matter how thin the coat, dampens the vibration. That's what I hear from luthiers and based on guitars I have that are made with hide glue, I believe I can hear the difference. Not to get technical but C.F. Martin Guitars are not a competitor of Gibson guitars. C.F. Martin makes acoustic guitars exclusively. Gibson does not, they mainly make Electric Guitars. From the famous Les Paul model to the popular 'SG' model, the 'Flying Vee', and the semi-hollow body ES-335 'Dot', and like BB King's ES-345 'Lucille'. The competitor for Gibson is Fender Guitars and their Stratocaster and Telecaster models. Many famous players like Eric Clapton start out with the Gibson Les Paul then switch to the Fender 'Strat' for the different sound a Strat makes. (Clapton's Fender Strat 'Blackie' sold at an auction at Christie's in London for a whopping $959,000!) 
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Quote:
Quote:
in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law
I’m not taking you to task my friend, but this is incorrect. We don’t live in a democracy, but a representative Republic, so voters have very little, if any, say over individual laws. We elect representatives to make those decisions for us. They are then answerable to the voters for their actions.
Democracy in its purest form is nothing more than “mob rule”. I like this quote from Wiki:
Quote:
In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, compared republican government to democratic government, and found democracy wanting.
Our Constitution is meant to prevent the “majority” from taking away the rights of the “few” and to limit the powers of the government. The government should fear the “people”, and not the other way around.
for what it's worth Bob, I chose my words carefully. Note in the quote above that I did NOT say we are a DEMOCRACY but that we are a "democratic society" (Which basically means the people get to vote). I'm quite aware that the USA is not a pure democracy. The point that I was trying to make is that a government "of the people by the people and for the people" should not have laws that the people don't want shoved down their throats.
Since it is impossible to please everybody all the time, I added the word MAJORITY assuming that elected officials should theoretically represent their constituents, which theoretically should be the majority most (but not all) of the time.
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Point taken my friend. When I saw "democratic society", I read that as synonymous with the word democracy. My mistake.
Take care.
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All the acoustic guitars I've owned have had Rosewood sides and backs except for one Gibson J-45.
I had no idea that Brazilian Rosewood was legal up until 1992. I may have an acoustic with Brazilian Rosewood. How would I tell?
I just know that when I shopped around for my Marin HD28 I played dozens of them and disliked all of them for the price. I bought mine from Gruhn Guitars in Nashville over the phone and it is still the best acoustic guitar I ever played. I know it was built around 1989-1990. I wonder what kind of Rosewood it is. It's very dark brown.
Is Brazilian Rosewood more prone to small cracks? I did have one problem with the side having a small split starting. Matin fixed it and put in side bracing which I see is now in all newer HD28s.
Wayne,
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Wayne,
I pulled the spec sheet from my custom Martin that I had built in 1992 to double check the rosewood. Since the guitar is custom made to specs, it doesn’t have a model number, it just has CUSTOM stamped where the model number goes. Essentially, it’s a HD28 with an oversized sound hole with double herringbone rosettes, extended fretboard (2 extra frets), Venetian cutaway and 1940’s style scalloped bracing. If it had a model #, it would be HDC282R.
Oops, …………sorry, you didn’t ask about my guitar, but I love that sucker!
The wood Martin used on both of our guitars is Indian Rosewood and is a beautiful and great sounding hardwood. Perfectly legal and a fantastic alternative to Brazilian. Another great and more beautiful alternative is Cocobolo. It’s a Central American hardwood.
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Hi Bob,
Your Martin sounds like a real keeper.
I remember how long it took me to find mine. I tried so many D28s and they didn't sound good for me.
Most of the HD28s I tried weren't for me, but when I found mine, I knew it was for me.
As soon as I got it I put on a set of my favorite strings. From the first chords I was in love and I still am.
I had a lot of acoustics on my life and they all just came and went. Some were very good ones, but my Martin was the first and now the only one I ever play. I had an under saddle tranducer put in and it took me almost 5 years for me to have it installed. I was just so afraid it would change the tone.
Also Martin's warranty is the best in the world.
Glad to hear about your Martin. It's great to have a guitar that makes you happy.
Every guitar I have now I bought new. It's amazing how I think of my Telecaster as my new electric guitar and it's 23 years old already.
One of my 12 Strings is from 1977. Time sure does fly.
Thanks for the info on the Indian Rosewood. It sounds great.
Wayne,
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Quote:
Point taken my friend. When I saw "democratic society", I read that as synonymous with the word democracy. My mistake.
Take care.
Bob,
your reply was more gracious than mine. Thanks for your good will.
Apologies for my sharp reply...
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Only play country music on it that ought to piss off the dems PAT: I still have my XV-5080, with some boards in it. Key part of my hardware! 
Last edited by GDaddy; 08/28/11 07:04 AM.
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
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Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows is here and it is packed with major new features! There’s a new modern look, a GUI redesign to all areas of the program including toolbars, windows, workflow and more. There’s a Multi-view layout for organizing multiple windows. A standout addition is the powerful AI-Notes feature, which uses AI neural-net technology to transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI—entire mixes or individual instruments—making it easy to study, view, and play parts from any song. And that’s just the beginning—there are over 60 new features in this exciting release.
Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until December 31, 2025. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49. Browse the full contents of each package and listen to demos here.
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!
Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
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