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When I studied Jazz guitar and later Jazz pedagogics almost all of my female colleagues were singers. How come? I have to say I`m a little pissed off with them. Most of them get on stage at a jazzsession with some stupid self-created arrangements, with dozens of sus4 chords that never resolve, they smoke me in the face on stage thinking they`re cool and none of them can scat over a regular II-V-I in a way that makes sense. Gosh, there are just 3 female vocalists here in Vienna that I consider musicians.
On Friday the Austrian version of "America`s/Britain`s got talent" startet. There were some funny guys with very creative ideas and guess what, ALL of the female performers were singers.
My suspicion is that they only want to be in the spotlight. Most of them don`t really want to work hard learning an instrument and not getting the benefits for it. That`s all so "girlie-chick"-like...
Gals, don`t hate me now, but I needed to say it...
Sandra
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Sandra, Option 1: Get all “dolled up” and strut across the stage and look sexy while singing, ……frequently with minimal talent, (as long as they look good while doing it). Option 2: Spend years “woodshedding” on a difficult instrument like an acoustic guitar in order to master it, years of studying music theory, and countless late nights sitting up learning tons of jazz tunes so you can play them well. Good for you for choosing Option 2. 
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When I studied Jazz guitar and later Jazz pedagogics almost all of my female colleagues were singers.
Simple answer. They are NOT musicians. They are vocalists.
If you ever listened to my tracks, you know what I don't call myself a vocalist despite the fact that it is indeed me singing.....
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Quote:
They are NOT musicians. They are vocalists.
Good for you, Eddie! You'd be surprised how many folks don't realize that very simple truth.
Sandra "earned" the right to be called a musician, and she's a damn fine one at that.
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Quote:
They are NOT musicians. They are vocalists.
Here we go again.. Please Sandra don't encourage them
Sandra, I am sorry you are having a bad day. I do respect your need to vent - and this is a good place to let it out as you are amoung friends. But trust me, your talents are not wasted nor ingored as you have developed and nurtured the gifts you have been given. 
And regarding the musicanship of vocalists - I don't understand how it could even come into question. A vocalists instrument is their voice jsut as a guitarist uses a guitar. Like any other musician they too can work for years to hone their craft. To me, if it sounds good, its music to my ears. 
Or, maybe I misread things here, certainly just because you play an instrument (or sing) - that don't make you a musician. So maybe Eddie and Bob do have a point here
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Sandra, Does this make you feel better. I always enjoy it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf-J_sJB29QAnd of course so fantastic guitarists from the world of Rock: Nancy Wilson Lita Ford Jennifer Batten Kelley Deal Carrie Brownstein Marnie Stern Orianthi
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Sandra,
It’s easy to see why you get “pissed”. If you’re playing in a jazz band and there’s a “singer” on stage, when the song ends, … who is actually getting the applause? Especially from the casual listener. The singer of course.
Since you KNOW what it takes to actually be a musician, versus what it takes to be “perceived” as a musician, this “pisses you off”.
It’s happened to a lot of us. If there are true musicians in the audience, they realize the musicians are the ones doing the “heavy lifting”. The singers do an essential part in “creating” music, but the musicians are the only ones “playing” music.
You’re the musician, they’re the singer. Both of you deserve “kudos”, but try not to let it get to you when the singer gets all the attention.
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Here we go again, Bad Eddie, go write a song!
their not musicians, their vocalist!
Really So you have to be a instrumentalist to be a musician?
Come on folks, Musician means one who make or creates music, that can be either with an instrument or a vocal.
If we follow your view, then we have to narrow the field their are vocalist, guitarist, pianist, .....
Never mind i give up. Call it as you want, exclude people who spend countless hours with vocal coaches, carefully honing their vocal skills, working through vocal cord strains, colds, changing conditions, learning to hit incredible notes, and runs that are amazing from the ranks of musicians.
Tell the folks that create acapella MUSIC that they are not musicians.
from Websters 1913 dictionary: Musician Mu*si"cian, n. [F. musicien.]
One skilled in the art or science of music; esp., a skilled
singer, or performer on a musical instrument.
[1913 Webster]
There call it as you will.
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Well put Bob, actually when I listen to live music I hear evey individual musician on the Stage (when maybe not with some of the bigger bands - my son's marching band has over 200 plus), but you get my point. I have ofter approached the drummer or bass player of backing keyboardist following a session to point out that I "heard" them - and it was cool.
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Quote:
from Websters 1913 dictionary: Musician Mu*si"cian, n. [F. musicien.]
One skilled in the art or science of music; esp., a skilled singer, or performer on a musical instrument.
[1913 Webster]
couldn't have said it better. Even specified a "skilled singer" to keep those vocal hacks out of the group. 
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Robh, Quote:
So you have to be a instrumentalist to be a musician?
Yes! It's so basic that it's hard to believe anyone would even challenge it.
Sandra appears to be frustrated by "singers" or "vocalists" getting all the attention instead of the musicians. She also appears to be wondering why more women don't choose Option 2.
I don't know the answer to that one. I do know that Sandra is a musician. I've heard her PLAY!
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Dan, Quote:
Well put Bob, actually when I listen to live music I hear evey individual musician on the Stage (when maybe not with some of the bigger bands - my son's marching band has over 200 plus), but you get my point. I have ofter approached the drummer or bass player of backing keyboardist following a session to point out that I "heard" them - and it was cool.
That's because you aren't a "casual listener". You're a musician.
I also try to look past the "cutie" or the "hunk" holding the microphone and tell the MUSICIANS I appreciate their playing.
It's surprising how they "light up" when they realize that someone noticed them and appreciated their efforts.
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I probably should put on body protection before I say this.....
I think it's also an issue of how music genre's rise and fall in popularity. Some may argue about this, but jazz is more popular in Europe than in the USA. No, that doesn't mean that there are not good musicians in jazz and any other style of music in the USA. But have you seen any big bands like Kenton, Basie, ect., lately?
Sandra, there are a lot of great lady musicians here. I know because I play with them every week in 2 bands and a brass quartet. I'm talking percussion, woodwinds, brass (both high and low). Since I don't play in any orchestras, I can't comment on the strings, but I sure see a lot of ladies playing strings on TV. Perception is another issue. How many times do we hear the audience applause just because a singer sings a high note? In other words, our cultural appreciation of "popular" music has changed quite dramatically, IMO. And then, "There's no accounting for taste."--as the old cliche' goes. How "classical" music has managed to survive is quite a miracle, IMO.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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So what you are sayin there Bobster, is that Webster's is wrong , and you are so right that it is unchallengeable? Wow!
If you want to cut singers out of the herd so to speak, by saying they are not musicians, but vocalist, then we would have to call instrument players instrumentalist, right?! That is according to your principles of the definition of the work musician.
Once again: Musician Mu*si"cian, n. [F. musicien.]
One skilled in the art or science of music; esp., a skilled
singer, or performer on a musical instrument.
[1913 Webster]
Merrian's Webster dictionary: mu·si·cian Listen to audio/mjuˈzɪʃən/ noun
plural mu·si·cians
[count] : a person who writes, sings, or plays music
MacMillan's Dictionary:musician
- definition noun [countable] British English pronunciation: musician /mjuˈzɪʃ(ə)n/
musician plural musicians
1. someone who performs or writes music, especially as their job
Okay Bob, your right I give up, and you win.
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Stan, Quote:
jazz is more popular in Europe than in the USA.
I think you’re right. These listeners in France moved in close and gave their undivided attention to the jazz musicians from the US.
http://wimp.com/frenchcows/
I bet the musicians wished they’d get that undivided attention in the US.
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Well, let me straighten this out.
I am not frustrated, because I don`t get as much attention as a singer. Actually in Jazz usually the instrumentalists get more attention, at least on the stage. I can`t complain about that, I always get what I want, so that`s just perfectly fine. I have no reason to be jealous;-))
It`s two other things that I rant about:
* The non existense of professionality amongst most "so-called singers"
* That most singers are so spotlight attracted, that they don`t consider anything else than becoming a singer.
I DO appreciate REAL singers, whom I think of as musicians. They can handle their voice and are aware of the music theory and work as hard as I do.
But the fact that one can get good attention even without all the hard work, simply because it`s easier to sing a tune reasonably correct, than to blow into a sax for weeks to get a tone out of it, seems too appealing to a lot of young girls.
BTW: I don`t have a bad day today, LOL
Sandra
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Robh, Quote:
Okay Bob, your right I give up, and you win.
No Rhobh! I don’t win!
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/musician
Quote:
a composer, conductor or performer of music. ESPECIALLY INSTRUMENTALIST
I just focus on the part from Merriam- Webster that says “Especially instrumentalists”, and then throw in a little common sense that says if you play a musical instrument then you are a musician.
You need to chill out a little bit. You’re getting way too frustrated over something that’s a matter of opinion.
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Maybe this will help. Even though I can sing, I wouldn’t DARE call myself a “vocalist” or a “singer”. Since my vocal prowess is mediocre, that would be deceptive. People who actually are “Vocalists” and “Singers” would laugh their a**es off if I identified myself as either. They’d be right to do so. By the same token, … if you say you’re a “musician”, …what’s the first question people ask? ………………”What do you PLAY?” Let’s see, …… they ASSUME that you can play an instrument! WOW!!!! That’s novel. (sic) Or you can be truthful and say what you actually can do! “I’m a singer”. Or “I use computer programs to CREATE some really great music.” Or “I’m a MUSICIAN”................................... Really?................................. What do you PLAY? LOL.
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I love when I get a chance to throw a wrench into a conversation.
Let's just say for the sake of the conversation, that someone comes from a place far away where there is no formal education. Let's call him Glorp.
Glorp gets a grant and enrolls in a small college and studies music theory, but the school is small and poor and has no instruments. Yet Glorp learns how to read music and relate that the little black dot on the bottom line means that he should press the first white key to the right of the group of 2 black keys on the plastic keyboard simulator. And if that dot is solid he should hold it for the duration of one of clicks he is hearing. And that the little tic tac toe symbol means that the scale uses one of the black keys and is centered around the white key to the right of the first black key in the group of 3 black keys.
You get what I am saying. A lot of us, me included if not ESPECIALLY me, place a lot of importance on the knowledge of music before we even consider the MAKING of music. So in Glorp's case, because he has no instruments available, he has no chance to apply his knowledge, but he does have the ability to, so I would call Glorp a musician even if he has never actually played a note.
Of course that is a ridiculous example, but I think you understand. In my opinion the exact moment that someone crosses the line from "I play and instrument" to "I am a musician" is the understanding of that instrument and the theories behind why the music is sweet. MOST people that I have played with that had no formal music education have acquired that knowledge by performance, and them I consider to be "members".
I was at Guitar Center and there was a mid 20s guy sitting on a small Marshall playing a Les Paul and hammering the neck with his right hand to beat the band. I walked past and asked if he could show me a Bbmaj7. He muttered an obscenity and kept impressing himself with his right hand hammering. Anybody can turn the amp up to 27 and hit strings. Yawn.
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Hi Sandra, I feel your angst. Myself, I’m a singer who plays a little as opposed to a player who sings a little. And I’m amazed how many of them think they are singers.  I never thought of myself as a musician. I told the musician’s union that very thing - however they didn’t see it that way when they actually picketed one of my gigs to pressure me into joining. It was long time ago but I remember it well. LOL. As for your first rant - I think it's because of reality tv shows. As for choosing, I think it's the rare talent who can do both equally well. Many people can play several instruments but usually one wins out. Most female singers I know learned to play something because they wanted to or out of necessity but today there's karaoke and backing tracks. I think what many of the wannabees don't realize is how many of their favorites do play something just not in public.
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