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This is a "no brainer" to me:
Each of the instruments used to create Real tracks, should be used to create a sample player that would load in a sampler - like Kontact.
This would allow the creation of melodies, intros/outros with *written parts*, etc. - that match the sound and tonality of the Real Tracks instrument...
At the very least, you should provide multi-sample libraries for users to do this themselves. Personally, I think you should a approach a company to create the player - a company like NI or the guys at IK that built Sample Tank... it they are not interested... then perhaps just release the samples and let your users create the libraries - perhaps as an after market service/product.
I would pay some good bucks to get a VST instruments that just had the major jazz rhythm instruments (drums, upright bass, acoustic and electric piano, jazz and nylon guitar) That would let you build real arrangements and still have the RealTracks generate the improvised sections...
You *did* get individual samples of all notes by all instruments during this project?... right?
Cheers!
Rob
PS: If such a Sample Player existed, then all the issues that Bob Norton correctly points out in this page (http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_vs_loops.html ), is eliminated... you merge the best of both worlds.
Last edited by rap; 11/27/11 09:03 AM.
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Okay, that on the surface sounds cool, but really we already have a boat load of that available.
Kontact, sampletank, you name it. They are all real samples. The difference with real tracks is that they do not follow midi data, so they sound well .. Real! If you chop them up smaller and make then follow midi, they will be subject to pitch bends, and such that do not sound real. Hence they will no longer be real tracks, but just another midi based sampler program.
Real tracks are not note based they are full three to five minute wave recordings of live playing, they are then chopped up no smaller than a bar, sometime several bars, and time stretched, and key signature adjusted to fit.
My fear if you cut the up smaller is that the notes would never match back up as needed, and it would start to sound terrible.
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I think what Rob is really alluding to, correct me if I’m wrong Rob, is better midi in BiaB. If we had 960 ppq, as the rest of the world is using, and better midi styles using that ppq we would get what Rob is requesting. At least that is what I think and I’ve been requesting for years.
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia.
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Quote:
You *did* get individual samples of all notes by all instruments during this project?... right?
No
It's a whole different world when you start using 'sections' of a recorded track, not individual samples. As mentioned; this 'live' feel makes a huge difference.
I'd like realdrums used as mentioned, since they DO have the individual sounds available (for the most part) but realtracks are a whole 'nother world.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Actually Mario, he is talking about being able to sample the individual notes in a RealTrack. He specifically mentioned, allowing a sampler company access to the RealTracks instruments.
He even ask "you "did" get the individual samples right? There are no individual samples. I am just pointing out that our new friend does not understand what a RealTrack is.
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rharv: You've completely missed what I'm saying. I think that the Real Tracks are amazing but they have some short falls - and as I said most, of what Bob Norton states is correct.... although he might be *over-stating* some issues...
Here is the bottom line: If I want to have a specific written part played by the "Real Tracks guitarist" - I can't. I'd have to go find a Kontact, or SampleTank or similar VST instrument - that sounds "similar" to the Real Track guitarist - and then record the part in MIDI. That seems pretty silly when we could have an instrument already made using samples made from the same instruments that made the Real Tracks. With some careful production, the VST instrument would have matched the Real Tracks instrument sound quite well. Of course the MIDI parts have to be played properly as well.
So to be clear - I *do* know Real Tracks are about - those longer phrases are needed for the current generation of the BIAB engine - that's fine. That doesn't mean that having also individual samples to build a VST instrument (to create melodies, written parts - etc.) makes sense...
It makes perfect sense...
Cheers!
PS: My comment about getting individual samples for all those instruments was just stating that the time to have done that, was when all those musicians were in the studio recording all those Real Tracks phrases... *that* would have been the time to record all the multi-samples for each instrument. If the guy in charge of that project, did not - then too bad... its too late.
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To my way of thinking, the major problem of having note-based melodies constructed with sampled sounds is one of intonation. There are thousands of different ways that a note can be played at its beginning, throughout its middle and as it decays. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the main difference between the performances of different musicians is their control over how any particular note is generated and how it musically segues into the next note. This subtlety and control of performance is what humans do best  Seems to me that making a melody that has all the performance realism of a Realtrack would be a difficult task. Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Noel96: Sure... but I don't want to get this into a "philosophical discussion". Lets stick to the practical.
Fact: Right now playing melody's and other "written parts" in BIAB, *MUST* be done by MIDI - so... do you want to do this with a sample that came from the instrument used in the Real Tracks phrases - recorded through the same mic, EQ, room ambience, etc. - OR - do you want it from some completely unrelated sample instrument? I don't want to spend hours searching for a match of nylon string guitar that sounds "close" - when I can have the exact same instrument. I don't understand what the argument against this could be...
And listen ...philosophical discussion aside: there is plenty of power in MIDI (controllers, polyphonic expression, etc.) in the hands of a good player OR programmer... I have fooled plenty of *professional* musicians into thinking a MIDI part was played by a human. And this on a recording that can be played over and over. For a live gig, its no problem...
Last edited by rap; 11/28/11 08:27 AM.
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I do see what you are asking for. I think realdrums can be done this way as I'm pretty sure they DID sample each drum (I've listened to the raw files sent with the program). I've even requested this same feature for those drums because of this.
I have no idea if they did that on realtracks, planning for the future, but as of now I haven't heard any of the files they use for realtracks (as opposed to realdrums) include any individual samples. That may change in the future, but as of now I haven't heard of them. So my 'No' was meant to say we as users do not get them as far as I know.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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rharv: ahhh... thanks for the clarification! :-)
It would be nice to know if multi-samples were actually taken during the recording of the Real Tracks... BIAB staff???
Given that the "audiofile" package is only 16/44.1 waves - which IMHO is 20 year old technology - perhaps they could "seeten the deal" and include samples along with that package. It would make the Audiofile version more ... lets say "worth-while". At this point I'll go for one of the mp3 versions...
Cheers!
Rob
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They are wma, not mp3, just so you know. They sound pretty good though. Not a LOT of difference in the long run.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Right... my mistake... I understand they sound great! If the waves were 24 bit, I might have gone for it... if they included multi-samples of bass piano and guitar - I would have DEFINITELY gone for it!
Now that we have come to an understanding, on what I was looking for, I still very curious to hear from a BIAB staff member with their thoughts - or confirmation that at least the raw samples were taken...
Cheers!
Rob
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16/44,1 is CCD quality, nuttin wrong with that.
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CD quality is based on 25+ year old technology - you can hardly call that "Audiofile" quality.
Standard production quality these days is 24/96. The high sample rate IMO is a bunch of marketing stuff, but there is a distinct difference in audio quality at 24 bit.
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Quote:
CD quality is based on 25+ year old technology - you can hardly call that [audiophile] quality.
It's not that it's old; the thing is that it was compromised in the first place, being limited to FM audio bandwidth, IIRC from 20 Hz to 18 KHz. Whatever happened to Hi-Fi? My studio headphones are good from 5 Hz to 30 KHz. Odd that the only medium I have that needs anything close to that is vinyl.
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What range can you hear?
I agree 24 bit makes the bigger difference compared to the rate.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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24 bit is better, especially if you face clipping issues, but as far as hearing, most of us do not hear any better that 16 bit can deliver. What 24 bit gives is headroom for hot signal. Keep you recording clean and clear, and out of digital clipping and it does not really matter that much.
In the end result you are dithering down to 16 bit to burn anyway.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Quote:
It's not that it's old; the thing is that it was compromised in the first place, being limited to FM audio bandwidth, IIRC from 20 Hz to 18 KHz. Whatever happened to Hi-Fi? My studio headphones are good from 5 Hz to 30 KHz. Odd that the only medium I have that needs anything close to that is vinyl.
Actually - I'm afraid it is. Look it up. (I should know - I was one of the first CD Mastering engineers in Canada: McClear Place, Toronto 1983-1986.)
And like I said - I don't personally believe in the high Fs stuff... above 20k, human hearing is much more... lets say "perceptual". However, 16 bit to 24 bit resolution is immediately apparent.
Last edited by rap; 11/30/11 11:28 AM.
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Quote:
24 bit is better, especially if you face clipping issues, but as far as hearing, most of us do not hear any better that 16 bit can deliver. What 24 bit gives is headroom for hot signal. Keep you recording clean and clear, and out of digital clipping and it does not really matter that much.
In the end result you are dithering down to 16 bit to burn anyway.
I agree with some points and disagree with others. Human hearing has a much wider dynamic range then theoretical 16 bit. As we get older we lose both high frequency response and dynamic range but the former goes first. I've been involved in ABX testing with various professional recording circles and even when 24 bit technology was in its infancy, it was reliably picked out over 16 bit.
You are certainly correct about more headroom - in particular for live recording where levels can be unpredictable ...and also quite important: as large number of tracks are digitally mixed, higher bit resolutions minimizes rounding errors.
The main reason folks dither down to 16 bit these days, is for CD's and CD derivatives. But this should be the last step. You will always get a better product if you start with 24-bit and then dither down in the mastering stage - then starting with 16-bit.
One other comment: With DTS-HD MA and Dolby True HD, many consumers enjoy 24/48 and 24/96 soundtracks in their homes - quite inexpensively. LOL! So unless all those folks are "audiophiles", I would suggest that calling 16/44.1 wave samples "audiophile" - is a bit of a stretch in 2011.
Cheers!
Rob
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Quote:
You will always get a better product if you start with 24-bit and then dither down in the mastering stage - then starting with 16-bit.
This has been my experience also. A good dithering algo is also very nice. But I don't even want to get into that discussion here. Suffice it to say 24 bit is worth the effort. Changing from 16 to 24 bit makes much more difference than any bitrate change ... 
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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