|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,693
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,693 |
Quote:
Huh? Sliders change the levels of the track that 'get sent to the mix'. That is how both digital and analog work. When you reduce the slider you reduce the signal out to the mix (or more exact, out from that track); what you hear in your monitor mix IS your mix. It isn't compression or limiting that does it. It's a reduction in the volume for the track output. It's digital.
Ok, fair enough. That seems to make intuitive sense with one problem. Why then do recording engineers universally preach do your basic tracking at -12 to -18db? And in the case of RB, tracking includes generating an RT. Who cares about that if all you have to do is lower the faders during mixdown? Obviously that is not the proper way to do it or all those engineers would simply say that and not go on and on about recording levels.
Like I said, I don't have the education to explain this fully but I do know it's true. Unlike some people I know when I read the same thing written over and over by pros and I finally conclude they know what they're talking about I simply try to do it the same way. I don't have two years to study it to try to figure out all the why's. I just do it.
You do pose a good question Rharv. It's doesn't make obvious sense and if someone here can answer it in detail I would like to read it. You could record every track at -2 and just adjust the console faders but every pro says no, don't even think of doing that.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
"Cleanup in aisle 9, stat!"
Lots of terminology is starting to be thrown around here. One of the items that is likely being misinterpreted is the term introduced by jazzmammal as 'automatic limiting' when saving the 2 track mix to a stereo .wav.
In most DAW software, when one does a saving of the final output bux to a 2 track file, there is an option for 'normalizing' or 'normalize' or 'prevent clipping' or something along those lines.
What jazzmammal is describing is a normalizing process. What normalizing will do is look to see where the absolute maximum level would be in the samples of the mixdown, and set that so that particular sample's digital output value is 100% of the max possible digital output - coded to .wav - and then scale every other sample in the mixdown by the same scale factor.
It can be a greater than 1 multiplication, or less than one (as is being discussed in this thread) multiplication.
This is entirely different than automatic 'limiting', which looks to see if any part of the mix-down file would clip and reduces only those parts which would clip, leaving the others unchanged.
Does everyone understand the difference? Normalizing scales every single sample in the .wav file by the same amount, in order to achieve the end result that the absolute loudest sample in the mixdown, gets the max that the .wav file allows, where limiting only changes samples which exceed some threshold value, leaving other samples unchanged.
Are we clear? If not, please post as such and I'll try to explain in a different way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Quote:
...automatic limiting ...
I am confused by this term. It sounds like you are implying that the DAW software removes clipping automatically on mix down with no intervention by the user. Does this happen in RB? I don't think Sonar does that (I could be wrong, of course).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,693
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,693 |
Scott just answered that. As I was writing these posts something didn't sound right and this is it, it's not limiting, it's normalizing. Thanks Scott. Just switch those two words. My main point hasn't changed and now when I search mixing articles using the keywoard "normalizing" I'm getting lots of hits all saying versions of this:
Normalizing
Do not use any kind of normalizing on your mixdown.
Normalizing raises the signal level in an unnecessary fashion, and it will change the
amount of headroom left in the mix. The final volume level of the mix will be optimized by
me.
That's what I was missing. I'm not going to bother posting the full link, they all say the same thing. Pro's don't normalize in most cases so my overall point is correct.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,126
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,126 |
Pros are often feeding signal to other hardware equipment. In this scenario headroom is important. If you are staying in the digital realm, you are a little safer going up a bit on the levels. Besides headroom there is signal-to-noise. Many hobbyists focus on this aspect. Numerous tracks add noise and if you record a strong signal you can lower signal-to-noise, but at the cost of headroom. I'd worry more about whether I was using line levels that are consumer (-10) or pro (+4). That may also come into play for the reason 'pros' say -12; they are likely using signals with more energy than hobbyists are to begin with. Here, maybe this will help- http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/jwal/index.php?id=79
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 883
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 883 |
Quote:
Quote:
You CANNOT mix down PROPERLY just by moving the volume sliders on your mixing console or in this case RB's software mixer. That is merely for you to adjust your monitor mix, it's not physically changing the levels on each track.
Wow, this has to be the most ill-informed quote I have ever seen on this forum....just....wow....
So I guess I would have to adjust each tracks waveform to do a PROPER mix?
I think someone needs to buy some books & study some more....wow..... 
Last edited by jcspro40; 10/28/12 04:05 PM.
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You CANNOT mix down PROPERLY just by moving the volume sliders on your mixing console or in this case RB's software mixer. That is merely for you to adjust your monitor mix, it's not physically changing the levels on each track.
Wow, this has to be the most ill-informed quote I have ever seen on this forum....just....wow....
So I guess I would have to adjust each tracks waveform to do a PROPER mix?
I think someone needs to buy some books & study some more....wow.....
What the poster was referring to is that the sliders are not performing a destructive edit to the levels of the recorded track.
There have been more misinformed statements in the thread than this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
As analogue levels and digital levels are not the same, I thought this article on recording levels might be of interest. http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/index_files/Proper_Audio_Recording_Levels.php There seems (at least to me), to be two different things being discussed in this thread:the recording levels (how hot to record the tracks) and the slider levels on the mixer. I'm trying to learn how to do this stuff properly and was getting confused so I thought I'd post the link and see what everyone else thought. 
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Pretty good article, but of course he doesn't say why it is harder to make hot tracks loud(er) while it is easier with track with lots of headroom.
My take: You use some kind of compression/limiter to make things loud at the end. If everything is too hot, then the "brick wall" limiter does all the work and everything gets squashed and you lose dynamics and clarity. If you have headroom, then the compressor does most of the work and the limiter only kicks in at a few transient peaks.
Well, I think that is what happens. But I don't really know for sure. I mean you could just slide the faders down and "create headroom" -- but I don't think that works as well. Ya know, I think I have hit the 0dB of my knowledge on this subject.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Pretty good article, but of course he doesn't say why it is harder to make hot tracks loud(er) while it is easier with track with lots of headroom.
My take: You use some kind of compression/limiter to make things loud at the end. If everything is too hot, then the "brick wall" limiter does all the work and everything gets squashed and you lose dynamics and clarity. If you have headroom, then the compressor does most of the work and the limiter only kicks in at a few transient peaks.
Well, I think that is what happens. But I don't really know for sure. I mean you could just slide the faders down and "create headroom" -- but I don't think that works as well. Ya know, I think I have hit the 0dB of my knowledge on this subject.
I DON'T user compression/limiter until the very last step if at all.
Think about this. If you have a quiet piano track, once you pull that slider all the way up or right (depending on your screen view) you are done. That's as loud as you can go. That's where I would start boosting 2db at a time to see if that created enough headroom.
And that is why I prefer to record hot. I can slide that puppy down to nothing if I want to, but I can only go so high before there is no more "high" to go to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Quote:
... Think about this. If you have a quiet piano track, once you pull that slider all the way up or right (depending on your screen view) you are done. That's as loud as you can go. ...
In sonar 8.x you have four ways to crank the gain on a single track (and there might be a couple others!). Of course clipping is your enemy with these steps.
1.) push the fader all the way (maximum +6db, it looks like)
2.) Crank the trim control (max +18db)
3.) Just add gain to the track. In Sonar 8x, you highlight that track, go to process --> audio and add max of +18db as many times as you want.
4.) You can use compression with make-up gain to make it louder.
It looks like you are just using the fader.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I am also not in Sonar 8.x. I work in Real Band 95% of the time. I go to Sonar when I want to play with an effect that RB doesn't like (Izotope, for example, crashes my RB but works fine with Sonar).
The original question, 3 pages ago, was asking what people call mastering, and why some of my songs sound like the top half of the spectrum is washed out. Early on I got like 4 different thoughts as to what the definition os mastering is. The resulting conversation has been awesome on many levels, too. Links and links from those links and all good reading that I copied and printed for highlighting.
This is why I love this place!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Just checked -- In Realband you seem to have everything that Sonar does.
1.) The fader is the same.
2.) The trim is found by clicking the fx icon on each track (next to the Solo button). The trim control is in the lower right of the fx window.
3.) To add gain to a track: Right-click on a track and "Select Whole Track". Then Edit menu --> Audio Effects --> Gain Change
4.) And I think you know how to find the compressor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,126
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,126 |
Eddie, try using DXi version of Ozone. Works here. If that's what you have running that crashed RB then try the VST version. I've heard of both ways having success, so worth trying 'the other one'.
Oh, and if you find yourself boosting lots of tracks, consider pulling the other tracks down instead.
Then worry about final levels (mastering) later. After the mix is done.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
Hi Kevin,
Referring to your quote:
"My take: You use some kind of compression/limiter to make things loud at the end. If everything is too hot, then the "brick wall" limiter does all the work and everything gets squashed and you lose dynamics and clarity."
Your knowledge isn't 0db at all, from eveything I have read and studied, you have it right.
If the wav is already filling the entire window, you have no more room to add effects and the mastering engineers are not going to like it. They have nothing to work they magic on. Pulling faders up or down doesn't alter the wav itself, it doesn't give you more headroom (as referred to in the article),it only the changes the volume.
At least that's my understanding of it all.
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 883
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 883 |
Quote:
Ya know, I think I have hit the 0dB of my knowledge on this subject.
Now THIS made my day!!!!  
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,339
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,339 |
Quote:
If the wav is already filling the entire window, you have no more room to add effects and the mastering engineers are not going to like it.
I hate to keep disagreeing with people, but this isn't strictly true. (Or even at all.)
Suppose the mastering engineer is sent a wav file with very little dynamic range and the recording normalised (maxed out). Because this is digital, the first thing he does is make a safety copy to work on. He then performs a gain change down a few db to create headroom without effecting the original mix in any other way. He is then free to work on the track in whatever way he sees fit, including increasing the dynamic range by use of an expander. When he's finished, he can bring the whole mix back up to max. Job done.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Quote:
Quote:
If the wav is already filling the entire window, you have no more room to add effects and the mastering engineers are not going to like it.
I hate to keep disagreeing with people, but this isn't strictly true. (Or even at all.)
Suppose the mastering engineer is sent a wav file with very little dynamic range and the recording normalised (maxed out). Because this is digital, the first thing he does is make a safety copy to work on. He then performs a gain change down a few db to create headroom without effecting the original mix in any other way. He is then free to work on the track in whatever way he sees fit, including increasing the dynamic range by use of an expander. When he's finished, he can bring the whole mix back up to max. Job done.
ROG.
But I bet he (or she) wouldn't be a very happy mastering engineer (unless he got to charge a lot for his services). Fixing a bad mix, while in the realm of a mastering engineer, is probably the last thing he would want to do to try and make it sound as good as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,026
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,026 |
When I listen to your songs Eddie it sounds like they have a poor job done on the EQ. That may be the problem with sounding washed out on the high end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Yep. Exactly what I am trying to learn. Plus some of the earlier songs were recorded through an outboard mixer with outboard reverb and EQ and I need to do them all again without all that stuff. Once those destructive effects were recorded, there is no going back, so I need to sing some of them again. First I have to hope I still have the original SEQ files.... it'll come. With all the great input from the userbase here, it'll come. The later stuff is MUCH better as I have learned more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Holiday Weekend Hours
Our Customer Service hours this weekend are as follows:
Friday, April 18: 8:00 - 4:00
Saturday, April 19: closed
Sunday, April 20: closed
Monday, April 21: Regular hours
Thank you!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!
Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation
Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
Update to RealBand® 2025 Build 5 Windows Today!
Already using RealBand® 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 5 now from our Support Page to ensure you have the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Get the latest update today!
PowerTracks Pro Audio 2025 for Windows is Here!
PowerTracks Pro Audio 2025 is here! This new version introduces many features, including VST3 support, the ability to load or import a .FLAC file, a reset option for track height in the Tracks window, a taller Timeline on the Notation window toolbar, new freeze buttons in the Tracks window, three toolbar modes (two rows, single row, and none), the improved Select Patch dialog with text-based search and numeric patch display, a new button in the DirectX/VST window to copy an effects group, and more!
First-time packages start at only $49. Already a PowerTracks Pro Audio user? Upgrade for as little as $29!
www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm
Video: Summary of the New Band-in-a-Box® App for iOS®
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new Band-in-a-Box® app for iOS®! Designed for musicians, singer-songwriters, and educators, this powerful tool lets you create, play, and transfer songs effortlessly on your iPhone® or iPad®—anytime, anywhere.
Band-in-a-Box® for iOS® :Summary video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums58
Topics83,895
Posts771,889
Members39,481
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean