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A question about religion and politics on the forum
Since a discussion about religion popped up again recently on the forum, it prompted me to review the forum rules again. To my surprise, I didn’t see anything mentioned about either. I’ve read the forum rules at least a couple of times before, but it’s been a while. That was before the new forum format. I could have sworn there used to a rule earlier against discussing either, even though it was violated frequently.
I’ve participated in more than a few of those discussions in days gone by, but since then I’ve tried to avoid both and said “please don’t” on both topics when they come up.
So my question is simple:
Did there used to be a forum rule against discussing religion and/or politics?
Please be civil. This isn’t meant to be a contentious discussion, just a clarification of whether it was previously forbidden and possibly whether both topics should be forbidden.
I'll go ahead and say that I think both topics should be forbidden because I believe that it would accomplish nothing but producing ill will, hurt feelings and misunderstandings.
Your thoughts please. Be nice. I hope PG weighs in.
Thanks
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"Since a discussion about religion popped up again recently on the forum..." It wasn't a 'discussion' about religion, Bobo. It was just a guy who was on the edge of an inferno, possibly about to lose everything, asking anyone who did pray to pray for him. The fact that you are offended by that says more about you than him, methinks. Maybe PG will appoint you Ombudsman of Political Correctness, so you can censor anything you find offensive. 
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Bob,
I understand where you are coming from and also understand that political correctness is not your motivation. Religion and Politics are very polarizing topics and the discussions quite quickly rise to insulting comments being made. I'm with you. We probably should avoid those topics.
I can't recall there being a rule before. If there was, it was not well enforced because most of the time when thing got hot is was over political comments.
Keith
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Bob,
Here are some comments from the prayer request thread, ( by the way, I have no problems with prayer requests).
“If God allowed the fires, what good will it do to ask Him to stop them?”
“Great question, Bud. I've asked this question and others similar to it countless times. Job in the Bible asked these types of questions to God when God allowed disaster upon disaster to come against Job's family. Prayers often seem futile. Very often; more often than not I would say. And yet we are challenged to bring our requests before Him. I'm not saying that I understand God and His ways. If I could really comprehend that then He could be contained in my or others' understanding of Him and frankly that would be a god not worth believing in in my opinion. I couldn't really look to Him to fix my brokenness or to be my source of hope, if I could really understand everything about Him.
It's really a great question.”
“Because we are fallen.
ALL of us.”
“Excuse me! Scott started this thread asking for prayer by those so inclined. Seems to me that those not so inclined should have tuned out then.
Scott then answered Rubberball's question regarding the need for prayer. All in the context of the original post. If Scott started the thread, he has every right to handle it as he sees fit.
Is the very mention of God so upsetting? I would hope not.”
By anyone’s standards, that’s a religious discussion. Now rubberball felt compelled to throw in some snide comments, which Scott misunderstood as a legitimate question.
Please hold the derogatory comments. Once again, contention isn’t the purpose of this thread. Clarification is the purpose.
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bobcflatpicker, I don't recall but seems to me the rules are pretty clear,
9. All of the forums except for the Off Topic forum are for discussions of PG Music products only. The Off Topic forum is used for MUSIC-RELATED discussions that aren't about PG Music products. Please keep all your posts as constructive as possible.
They even used all caps to stress "MUSIC-RELATED"! It would be best for all if we left religion and politics completely off the forums.
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Many people here write Gospel/Praise/Worship songs. It would just about impossible to separate religion from music.
Ditto for politics.
If your offended by religious discussion, don't read a "prayer request" thread! If you wound up there by accident, use the back-button.
The back-button also works for politics.
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Prayer request's and gospel songs aren't religious discussions.
I've got more than a few gospel songs in my repertoire. That wasn't the question I asked.
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The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are just as real as god is. So is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
No one has even a smidgen of proof for any of them.
So if I asked for folks on the forum to pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster to help me out, it would have just as much validity as any other request for prayer.
Or should we vote for what the PG god should be? Even if we decided upon a Christian god, to which god of which denomination should we pray to?
Should he/she/it be Catholic or Protestant? Maybe we should pray to one of the MANY Hindu gods!
Is Jesus the answer, or did Mohammed have it figured out?
Or should we just leave god in all his/her/it’s forms out of a music forum and just talk about music?
It would be much simpler if we left the "Boogie Man In the Sky" out of the equation on here and encourage folks to visit their favorite religious forum to discuss religion and their favorite political forum to discuss politics.
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Two sayings come to mind here: "That government is best which governs least," and "Be careful what you pray/wish for."
PG has historically exercised a light hand on the forums. I like that, as opposed to another music software forum in which political and religious threads are soon locked, if not removed entirely.
We must also give ourselves credit for restraint. Discussions here rarely become problematic. It does happen, but it almost always resolves on its own. I am reminded in particular of a heated exchange between myself and another senior member during the 2008 US presidential election which became extremely heated, but never got personal. We still respect each other and we moved on.
Almost all Off Topic discussions can be considered music related if you remember that we are all musicians. Personal situations and external events which affect us affect our music as well. I am often amazed, in an entirely positive way, by the gentle affection that is displayed as we show concern for each other's circumstances.
I would hate to see the opportunity for such exchanges lost to the perceived need to restrict what most of you will admit is a miniscule number of topics. I would vastly prefer that we continue in the spirit of "Live and let live."
Richard
Last edited by Ryszard; 06/25/13 11:07 PM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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I would hate to see the opportunity for such exchanges lost to the perceived need to restrict what most of you will admit is a miniscule number of topics. I would vastly prefer that we continue in the spirit of "Live and let live." Good points Richard, except there's quite a few folks on here that will act as if you have 666 tattooed on your forehead if you say "lets PLEASE not talk about religion or politics". I honestly don't care what anyone believes for themselves about either. Since this is a music forum, wouldn't it be better if we left the two most contentious topics on the planet off the menu?
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I would argue that to completely ban religion related discussions would be to ban me, and *really everyone else on this forum.
I am who I am because of the beliefs I hold. To deny me religion related discussion is to ban the expression of my thoughts and feelings because they result from the thought processes and feelings I have which in turn are directly related to the beliefs I hold.
That said, I would agree that OVERT religious or political discussion can raise blood pressure in some individuals enough to make reasonable discussion impossible. Then there are, of course, the trolls - not too many of them here I'm happy to say.
However, it has been my experience on this forum, that as stated in an earlier post we are, as a group, reasonably well behaved and restrained.
Please let us not have rules for the sake of rules nor to muzzle free speech. If discussions become acrimonious enough to require excessive intervention, then that is the time to think about bans - not before.
As has also been stated - if you don't like a discussion, whatever the subject, then don't read it - there's plenty of other things to read.
* before you have a go at me over this statement you would need to understand my definition of religion - which may well differ from yours. The definition I use is rather broad and includes the worship of self, money, posessions and lots of other possibilities - it is possible to make "gods" of pretty much anything... I happen to prefer the Christian God but I'm not interested in having an argument about it.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Hi Bob,
I seem to remember that there used to be a direct reference in the forum rules about discussions on religion and politics. That was a few years ago. Nowadays, those statements now seem to have morphed into more general ones.
I agree with you. These forums are not designed for religion or politics.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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As has also been stated - if you don't like a discussion, whatever the subject, then don't read it - there's plenty of other things to read. that kind of a policy leaves it way too open IMHO! a conversation about the Quran would be acceptable and I should just not read that thread? politics would be OK? what about social causes? pornography? gardening? carpentry? etc.? much better to simply follow the stated forum rules and keep it about the music. if you wanna talk religion or politics or any of the myriad of other topics you should find a forum where that is welcome and not clutter up the music forum and potentially upset people who do not share your opinions on those other things.
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. . . and potentially upset people who do not share your opinions on those other things. And there's the whole PC position in a nutshell. If we don't say anything for fear of offending someone, pretty soon we shall all be silent. That, and using the power of government (in this case, PG Music) to impose your values on others. It's all about control, innit? Pass. To expand a bit, if I hold a certain value, and tell you that I hold that value, and you are offended, that's your problem. As has been said earlier, if you don't care for the content of a discussion, stay out of it. I vastly prefer the laissez faire condition that exists now. There may be a time when restriction is needed, but I don't see it at the moment. Edited to add: I just tipped this thing over into politics, didn't I? Oh, wait--that's where it started. (No offense to Bobby C.--I know that wasn't your intent.)
Last edited by Ryszard; 06/26/13 12:38 AM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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that kind of a policy leaves it way too open IMHO! a conversation about the Quran would be acceptable and I should just not read that thread? politics would be OK? what about social causes? pornography? gardening? carpentry? etc.?
much better to simply follow the stated forum rules and keep it about the music. if you wanna talk religion or politics or any of the myriad of other topics you should find a forum where that is welcome and not clutter up the music forum and potentially upset people who do not share your opinions on those other things.
If no one responds, the discussion will soon die - if you don't take part how does it affect you? I've also noticed I said this badly: I would argue that to completely ban religion related discussions would be to ban me, and *really everyone else on this forum.
What I intended to convey was that everything I say and think is coloured by my beliefs - how do I divorce my beliefs without becoming someone else entirely? If I am someone else entirely then what I say will be different. Therefore what I say has a religious basis, whether or not I am directly addressing a religious topic. Politics is in pretty much the same boat.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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. . . and potentially upset people who do not share your opinions on those other things. And there's the whole PC position in a nutshell. If we don't say anything for fear of offending someone, pretty soon we shall all be silent. That, and using the power of government (in this case, PG Music) to impose your values on others. It's all about control, innit? Pass. Baloney! You are confusing the public square with a private forum. To expand a bit, if I hold a certain value, and tell you that I hold that value, and you are offended, that's your problem. As has been said earlier, if you don't care for the content of a discussion, stay out of it. Again, that applies in the public square but not on a private forum. If I go to a movie and you decide to preach the gospel the owners of the theater will toss you out and rightly so because that is NOT what we came there for!
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J3, you have managed to miss my points completely. I don't know of anyone who comes here to "preach" as you so pejoratively put it. To use your simile, entering a theater to which you have gone for one purpose and have paid admission for the privilege is one thing. Yes, I went to see the movie, and no, I don't want to hear an unrelated speech instead.
But this IS a public square. Joining a forum topic (or not) is completely voluntary. If you (or anyone) are for some reason not interested in or do not agree with the topic, all you (or anyone) has to do is nothing.
Instead, certain individuals choose to inject themselves into the conversation and then complain that they disagree with the premise. The public square equivalent would be throwing tomatoes and rotten eggs. Now, what kind of person would choose to do that?
J3, we haven't interacted much if at all, but I value you as a member of and contributor to these forums. It would be great if everyone could afford others the same respect. Sometimes simply keeping one's peace is the way to do that, instead of demanding that others conform to their standards.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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So my question is simple:
Did there used to be a forum rule against discussing religion and/or politics? I don't think so. The strongest argument anyone has ever been able to make from the rules is that a conversation isn't music-related. But then, there are lots of discussions on the forum that aren't music related. Talk of vacations, employment situations, health issues, local catastrophes, product recommendations, jokes, humorous stories, purchases, movies, TV shows have all been sighted here, but nobody complains... which leads me to believe that invoking the "not music related" rule is disingenuous to say the least. When people selectively use the same rule they often ignore to stifle discussion of a topic they don't like, it is indeed about control, and about someone trying to impose his will on the forum.
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Again, that applies in the public square but not on a private forum. If I go to a movie and you decide to preach the gospel the owners of the theater will toss you out and rightly so because that is NOT what we came there for! yet if we are at a movie and someone quietly asks an acquaintance to pray for some situation he most certainly would NOT be kicked out of the theater. On the other hand, if somebody who overhears the request and stirs up a bunch of dissention trying to make that person stop asking for prayer... the one stirring up a fuss probably would get kicked out From my point of view, the ones who change an otherwise pleasant and community-based discussion into an argument are always the same ones who try to shut down the discussion on the grounds that such discussion creates bad feelings... when they are the ones who introduced contention in the first place! It isn't religious discussion that causes bad feelings... it is the purposeful introduction of sniping
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Since this is a music forum, wouldn't it be better if we left the two most contentious topics on the planet off the menu? with all due respects, Bob (and I really DO respect you a lot.. even though I am of a different opinion on this topic) 1) you say religious discussion is inappropriate and should not be allowed. But this is clearly a thread about religion (not doctrine bot about its appropriateness... so religion is the clear them of the thread)... and YOU started it, in violation of your own main point!! 2) the original discussion, OTOH, was clearly NOT about religion... it only became problematic when a few who really had no investment in the discussion decided to turn it into a religious argument by making the kind of statements that are classic barroom fight lines. 3) if memory serves me, MOST of the knock down drag out political discussions in the past were also started by you. The interesting thing about all of this is that this group has evolved from an impersonal forum into a group of international friends. Friends talk about all kinds of things. It would be one thing if somebody came in and started proselytizing... I would protest too, even though I would probably agree with the message. But no proselytizing is going on here.
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