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Journeyman
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Sweet 16,
As Tears Go By,
Maggie May
My Little Angel
Claire
I could go on as there are plenty more songs, but I think you get the idea. Your stance on this I think is way off the mark. I respect your right to hold strong views, but I totally disagree in THIS context
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I really don't care what you think. I find the subject matter reprehensible, and your defense of it disgusting.
And yet you waste time and space reacting to comments. If you don't care what others think then why not just walk away. You cast rather nasty inferences and a wide net. Surely you must expect others to call you out on it? I was not defending anything, merely saying your reaction is a gross over-reaction as I am sure the writers intent was not what you are insinuating. Are you so arrogant that you cannot even contemplate for a moment, that your "opinion" may actually be wrong regarding this song? Defending the innocence of children is never a “waste” of my time. Apparently, I am in the minority. That's OK. And it's not my nature to 'walk away'. You speak of this “writer” in the third person, yet the song is posted under your forum name. Did you write this piece of art or not? If so, why try to distance yourself from it? Didn't you write: “The intent was to suggest that the person telling the tale is more troubled by the events than he realizes or admits ("I don't know why, I always sigh, each time I think of her name -- nothing was ever the same.")”? I have been called arrogant, but usually not to my face. I rather doubt that you would choose to do so; but then, I'm not a 15 year old child, either. 
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Journeyman
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errmm...I didn't write the song 
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Journeyman
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I have been called arrogant, but usually not to my face. I rather doubt that you would choose to do so; but then, I'm not a 15 year old child, either. I would certainly repeat every comment I have made face to face. No problem. Bear in mind I am only criticising your comments and reaction on this one, NOT you personally.
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errmm...I didn't write the song I am quite aware of that.
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Journeyman
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errmm...I didn't write the song errmm............I wasn't speaking to you. But thanks for playing. But you used my post in your quote, thereby inferring I had written it. So that was a mistake? In which case your apology is accepted......oh wait you didn't apologise  My bad.
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errmm...I didn't write the song errmm............I wasn't speaking to you. But thanks for playing. But you used my post in your quote, thereby inferring I had written it. So that was a mistake? In which case your apology is accepted......oh wait you didn't apologise My bad. You are quite right. I apologize for confusing you with the other person. I do not, however, apologize for my opinion. I need another drink.
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Okay cool, no probs...Easy enough to do on an emotive subject as this is.
And I expected no apology for your views. They are valid for you and I respect that 100%
Peace to you.
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The author is clearly not advocating or glamourizing the abuse of a minor, right? I didn't read the lyric as either "advocating" or "glamourizing" the abuse of a minor. One of us has a serious reading comprehension problem. Well, that's quite possible. I think we can agree the lyric talks about pedophilia without clearly condemning it. But I don't agree that it "advocates" (recommends or supports) pedophilia. As for "glamorize" (make glamorous or desirable), how does the narrator feel about being in the relationship? The only time the narrator speaks about their own feelings are: I don’t know why
I always sigh
each time I think of her name
nothing was ever the sameOne could take the word "sigh" to mean "Gosh, I really loved that 32 year old rapist!"Or it could mean "Boy, I should be over these feelings of attachment by now - darned Stockholm Syndrome!" It doesn't seem to be a word that overly "glamorizes" the relationship. It seems to be just another ordinary choice in a song filled with trite and lazy "rhymes" (boy/boy and good/good).
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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“It doesn't seem to be a word that overly "glamorizes" the relationship. It seems to be just another ordinary choice in a song filled with trite and lazy "rhymes" (boy/boy and good/good).”
David -
You really are an expert on critiquing the songs of others. You say that this one is “filled with trite and lazy "rhymes".
On what basis do you claim any expertise in songwriting? On what basis do you presume to critique anyone's songwriting?
I have yet to hear any of your wonderful, well-crafted songs.
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You really are an expert on critiquing the songs of others. Am I? I never made that claim. You say that this one is “filled with trite and lazy "rhymes". Yes. Sorry,Gilley. I quoted "rhymes" because he rhymed "boy" with "boy" and "good" with "good." As for "trite", I'll defer to Pat Pattison on that one. On what basis do you claim any expertise in songwriting? I never claimed any expertise in songwriting. On what basis do you presume to critique anyone's songwriting? My comments were explaining why I didn't think this song promote or glamorize pedophilia. Specifically, I was speaking to the choice of the word "sigh", which is the only place where the narrator of the song voices any emotional response. I have yet to hear any of your wonderful, well-crafted songs. I'm not sure how that invalidates my ability to parse a song. Why the ad hominem attack?
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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“I'm not sure how that invalidates my ability to parse a song.”
What gives you the 'ability' to “parse” a song at all? That's precisely the point. You critique people's songs, never having written one yourself (or at least posted one), and everyone is supposed to take your criticism seriously. On what grounds?
Why the ad hominem attack?
A better question would be -
“Why would someone who has never written a song in his life comment on anyone's writing?”
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Oh Gilley,
what have you done to the forum?
Why didn't you let that boy grow two years older
and you would have created a wonderful song.
A forum mishap.
Guenter
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What gives you the 'ability' to “parse” a song at all? Ah, you got me there. This "language" thing, using "communication" to encode the transmitting of information from the sender to the receiver is just beyond me. The last couple of posts prove that decisively. From now on, I'll leave critiquing to songwriters, endowed as they are with mystical powers to understand meter, rhyme and complex stuff beyond the ken of ordinary listeners. How any of this has any bearing on Gilley's song is beyond me...
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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I could probably change 15 to 16 (and perhaps get rid of the curseword in the final verse). But, looking at the comments here, would that make a difference? I was thinking about how I decided to write this song, and the choices musically and otherwise, and I suspect that in the back of my mind was that 1971 film, Summer of '42. A boy, who is also 15, has his first sexual experience with an older women. She's closer to the boy's age, being in her 20s, but she is still an adult female who sexually initiates a 15-year-old. I might also have been affected, without thinking about it, by Michel Legrand's hauntingly beautiful score and the song at the heart of it, "The Summer Knows." I suspect I was going for the same sad, wistful feeling in the intro.
What I find interesting, though, is that Summer of '42 seems to get away with it. I wondered if the film had provoked any moral indignation at the time, so I went back and read some reviews that came out when the film was first released (NY Times, Roger Ebert, etc.) To my surprise, I couldn't find any that mentioned "pedophilia" or objected to the film's theme, or the actions of the Jennifer O'Neill character, on that basis. Are we living in different time with different sensibilities? Or was the movie just so sweet and drenched in nostalgia that few could condemn the plotline? Frankly, I don't think the movie would have worked if the boy had been 17. I think there is something about being about 15, in that stage between childhood and adulthood, that is necessary for this kind of story. But what do I know. Still, I wonder how people would have responded to Summer of '42 if it had been released in 2013, instead of 1971.
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There was a more recent case in Washington State where a female teacher "initiated" a young boy and, if I recall, is still in prison. Her name is Mary Kay Leturnou and the boy was only 13.
Last edited by Don Gaynor; 07/15/13 02:12 PM.
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Changing the age won't "fix" the problem, because the core issue is that the relationship is morally wrong. The legal distinction between children and adults is predicated on the idea that children lack the intellectual and moral capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. The adult in a relationship has the upper hand in every regard over the teenager, and that's why we give children and teenagers legal protection. There was once a sort of double-standard in play, where sex with an adult male was considered predatory rape, while sex with a adult female was a sort of "coming of age" incident. There was also the idea that it was less harmful, in that boys wouldn't become pregnant. The political and legal landscape has changed a lot since then. And in the past few years there's been a lot of high profile cases were older women have been charged with rape of teenagers. Here's a recent case of an adult teacher having sex with her student. The only reason she's not in jail is because she married the student (with the mother's blessing)! 
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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I don't recall the female in this song being in a 'position of authority', which would change things.
Both 90db and Don (and DCUNY) have mentioned this. 11 - 13 yrs old is is different than 15 -16, under many circumstances. Especially when a teacher or mentor is involved.
Like Gilley, I think the age choice is significant in the reactions.
If he's 16 it is no legal issue in most states (provided no authority figure is involved). Being shy of that the 'pedophile' question comes up. That's why I posted the link of the Pedophile definition .. generally accepted to be a few years younger than 15.
I'm not condoning any of it, just questioning the reactions, and trying to clarify the accusations. I honestly don't think the original post was meant to promote pedophilia. But then again I don't know the original poster at all.
FWIW in the Letorneau case, the boy was 12 ..
Last edited by rharv; 07/15/13 07:23 PM.
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My take on this is that the wrong issue is being discussed. <my two cents> It isn't a question of whether the song has offended some people, because it clearly has. But there are two distinct groups and their opinions about what is OK are different. Therefore we can never get consensus based on a discussion of whether or not the subject is OK. Its really a question of censorship on the forum, and which group gets to decide what's not allowed. We've had this discussion several times , and it always ends up that we decide censorship is not what we want In the past we've had blow-ups when people posted songs with faith-based content. It is another situation in which two groups having opposing and irreconcileable opinions fight for control of the forum. When one group tells the other group they can't post faith-based songs because they don't like them, we quickly protest that they don't have the right to censor our posts based on their beliefs. And in a group with multiple points of view, there needs to be liberty to accommodate all of them, except where it violates other forum rules. In this case, forum rule #2 says:
2. There will be no profanity or foul language. Any disruptive language will be removed and you may receive sanctions.
therefore it is reasonable to request a change in the posted lyrics containing the offending language. But there's no rule about the songs content any more than there is a rule about posting faith based stuff. In both cases, allowing posts from the opposing group doesn't mean you agree with that sentiment. It just means that the forum doesn't have thought-police on duty. Personally, I didn't like the song either. But I don't want to set a precedent that starts an ideology war of both groups trying to set limits on the other. The most peaceable response when you don't like a post or a song, is to skip over it. That applies to all of us. (note to self: "yes, you too") If censorship DOES come into play, it should come from PGMusic, not from forum members. We're just guests in their house abiding by THEIR rules. </my two cents>
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+1
Great post Pat.
Dennis
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