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Write to enjoy, learn or hone a new craft. If you have personal enjoyment from that, then other matters come into play and whether you shoot for commercial success is an entirely different discussion. But at least give songwriting a try.
Many resources have been shared in these forums for how to approach this. But take the first step.
Whether you can be successful with a cello in a song commercially is a matter of opinion, and I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum that can predict success or not if one chooses to include any particular instrument.
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What I mean by fantasy is...when was the last time you drove a shiny pickup down a dirt road to a bonfire at the pond with the farmer's daughter sitting beside you? Never? Oct 28, 2006. I had recently gotten a 2003 F150 with 20k miles. Not brand new, but new for me - and still plenty shiny. A songwriter buddy who lived further out in the country than we did had a big bonfire guitar pull the Saturday before Halloween every year. You had to travel a couple of miles down a gravel road to get to his place - and the last part - his 1/2 mile "driveway" was dirt. Mostly cream-of-the-crop writers and pickers - taking turns either around the fire or in the barn (where he had a small studio). My wife was along - and while she was not a farmer's daughter, she was the hottest cheerleader in high school - so I figure that qualifies. I'd call it living the dream - not a fantasy...
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Oct 28, 2006.
Mostly cream-of-the-crop writers and pickers - taking turns either around the fire or in the barn (where he had a small studio).
To be included in that group...wow!
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I don't usually listen to country music, but today I had a long task to perform, so I put the radio on the local country station and listened all day.
My take on what appears to sell : almost every song reminded me of some other song in another genre... sometimes VERY close. One song sounded so close to Alan Parson's EYE IN THE SKY that I had to listen real close to the words to make sure it wasn't a direct remake.
Its as though the current rule is to extract the signature groove from another hit, and regurgitate it as a country song. I heard songs that reminded me of Fleetwood Mac, Tom Petty, Rolling Stones, Journey, the Hollies and others
If I decided to try my hand at writing a contemporary country song, I'd start by picking a song in another genre that sold a million copies. I'd listen to it for an afternoon, then I'd sit down at my studio and let my subconscious mind incorporate elements of that song into a new song
Last edited by Pat Marr; 05/18/14 08:12 PM.
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Pat, that may be the 'real' formula for being a country hit songwriter. Another thought which popped into my head while reading your post, the artists you mention are likely the actual influences for many of today's country artists. But, they will never mention any of these names from the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. It will always be Hank, Lefty, George and Merle. Wonder why you don't hear any of their musical influence?
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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What I mean by fantasy is...when was the last time you drove a shiny pickup down a dirt road to a bonfire at the pond with the farmer's daughter sitting beside you? Never? Oct 28, 2006. I had recently gotten a 2003 F150 with 20k miles. Not brand new, but new for me - and still plenty shiny. A songwriter buddy who lived further out in the country than we did had a big bonfire guitar pull the Saturday before Halloween every year. You had to travel a couple of miles down a gravel road to get to his place - and the last part - his 1/2 mile "driveway" was dirt. Mostly cream-of-the-crop writers and pickers - taking turns either around the fire or in the barn (where he had a small studio). My wife was along - and while she was not a farmer's daughter, she was the hottest cheerleader in high school - so I figure that qualifies. I'd call it living the dream - not a fantasy... Now that's some funny stuff right there....I don't care who you are....
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Pat, that may be the 'real' formula for being a country hit songwriter. Another thought which popped into my head while reading your post, the artists you mention are likely the actual influences for many of today's country artists. But, they will never mention any of these names from the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. It will always be Hank, Lefty, George and Merle. Wonder why you don't hear any of their musical influence? bluegrass ain't exactly country... but there's a definite relationship between the two. I went to Merlefest this year, and one of the things I noticed was the phenomenon of artists naming rock era bands as being an influence. I'm talking multiple acts and multiple influences. And there was a surprisingly high number of rock songs played directly as covers or as fusion with bluegrass style. I heard songs by the Doobie Brothers, Rolling stones and many others, but my old man memory can't recall the names at the moment. The times, they are a-changin' 
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Floyd mentioned in a previous post that what we hear on the radio today is already old news, the hot writers have already moved on to something else.
I submit that change tends to happen slowly and incrementally. The pattern of borrowing elements from hits of the past appears to have a pretty long shelf life.
What changes is how aggressively one borrows from the past, and which genres are being borrowed from. I'm not very knowledgeable about country music in specific, but I am fairly conversant in the topic of how trends mutate.
I noticed that as I listened to the country station, the older songs borrowed heavily from the 70s, but the newer ones were borrowing from the 80s-90s hits. Some even venture into hip-hop, but that doesn't appear to be main stream yet.
If you look at the demographic, the kids of the 80s and 90s are now adults in the workforce. Many work places have the radio on all day, and advertisers want the radio to be turned to a station that appeals to people in the prime of life spending money on building a life.
Many of those people grew up on 80s music, so it makes sense that young working adults would adapt to new music that contains those elements and influences.
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I also noticed that ALL of the songs were very "hooky"... meaning they were built around recurring themes of instrumentation and lyics.
Upshot is, if you're writing country songs in BIAB (any genre really) you need to take special pains to create the hook. If you find a good lick that works, use it throughout the song. Hopefully the lick complements the cadence of the lyrics.
The random generation that makes BIAB great for jamming is not what's needed for recordings. For recordings you need a repetitive theme... and its the songwriters job to make that happen.
PS: I understand I'm preaching to the choir.. this group already does the things mentioned in this series of posts. I'm just writing all this down for the purpose of organizing my thoughts.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 05/19/14 05:46 AM. Reason: added PS
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Pat - as always, I am enjoying reading your thoughts here - you make astute observations. Since turning the radio back on 2 years ago, I have said - the guy songs all sound like BTO and the girl songs all sound like Pat Benatar. That part is not surprising since the Country music sound has been "borrowing" from old rock for a long time now - the stuff we all grew up on (as you noted). 90's country borrowed more from the singer/songwriter side of things. The last wave seemed to be from 70's rock (who doesn't like that) and the current stuff is 80's pop (which I was never a fan of - but plenty of people were...).
The hits are still being written by a couple of guys (or 3) getting together in a room with acoustic guitars. Writing appointments are usually a couple of hours. Often with a break for lunch (head to a meat and three), talking things over, then back for the 2nd or 3rd hour. Occasionally there is a follow up in a day or so if you didn't finish - not often. More often than not it only takes a couple of hours. The "re-write, re-write" scenario is a myth... The final sound as you have noted is the producers - so it really becomes a different discussion. The writers may be banging on those acoustic thinking "let's write an REO thing this time..." but it's still acoustic guitars - it's the guys in the studio creating that sound that radio is wanting... and that is a part of "The big change".
Many of the big guys (producers) have a small group of writers in their employ - their own publishing house which is then a part of one of the major publishers - so they control what gets written (suggesting) as well as what gets recorded... another reason why you see the same writers names all the time ....
Which was where this thread started in the first place...
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Floyd, you have a rare combination of right-brain artistic sensibility and left-brain analytical athinking. Add to that your musical background, and it is no surprise that you are the heavy hitter referred to in the title of this thread.
Now I'm gonna have to listen to more country radio to get the BTO and Pat Benatar connection (which I totally see..I may have been mis-assigning their sound to somebody else)
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Regarding the reality that people like us stand a snowball's chance in Hades of ever selling a song to Nashville, the thought occurs to me that the same level of "sell your soul to the industry" (if applied to the task of building your own reputation rather than being applied to the task of writing songs for others) could lead to a certain following who would want to hear your songs played by you.
Joe Bonamassa is a good example of a guy who has forged his own reputation, and now he enjoys the fruit of his labors.
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today, BTO... tomorrow, REO? (speedwagon)
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today, BTO... tomorrow, REO? (speedwagon) Actually, yes...but more like yesterday BTO, today REO... a year or two ago it all sounded like BTO - big guitar "explosions" and riffs... today it's more like that REO sound where it's just sort of a big no-stop flow of sound - and not so much riffing...
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excellent fine adjustment in my thinking.. thanks Floyd!
OK, so we won't sell any of our songs to Nashville...
But It might be fun to have an informal country music contest on the users showcase. and even though we all know who will win, it might be an interesting exercise in applying our collective yet individual takes on the current trends in country music.
Maybe posting songs with the word "CONTEST" in the header would identify songs being submitted for such...
and when the flow of new entries stops, the forum can vote on one they like best.. (maybe it could be automated?)
Or not.
But if there's a contest, that might be the incentive to get off my duff and finally post something
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Its as though the current rule is to extract the signature groove from another hit, and regurgitate it as a country song. I heard songs that reminded me of Fleetwood Mac, Tom Petty, Rolling Stones, Journey, the Hollies and others
If I decided to try my hand at writing a contemporary country song, I'd start by picking a song in another genre that sold a million copies. I'd listen to it for an afternoon, then I'd sit down at my studio and let my subconscious mind incorporate elements of that song into a new song this is a damn good idea! I'm gonna give this a shot (or two!)
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I look forward to hearing what you come up with John^3
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one more thought to add to this line of reasoning:
If you have a way to find out the average age of first time home buyers, then zero in on the year that age graduated from high school and pick a hit song from that year.
Home ownership fuels a lot of related spending... furniture, curtains, dishes, etc etc. My guess is that Nashville trends are driven at least partly by advertising revenue
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I get this thread is old, but there is SO much GREAT information in it! I just wanted to thank Pat for starting it.
I have been searching the threads to learn all I can and LOVE discussions like this. It's a real testament to the forum to see things like this.
It also shows the reason for forums like this. To preserve conversation for future readers!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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