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Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250373 05/19/14 12:14 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,987 Oklahoma, USA Don Gaynor Veteran
Don Gaynor Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,987 Oklahoma, USA	Danny, thanks for clarifying. I couldn't see myself "biting the hand" and would never repay your wonderful kindnesses in such a manner. It brought food for thought, however, and I'll be especially careful not to hurt my fellow musicians (remembering my 40+ years of paying my dues). About all that I can promise in the "beverage" category is a bottomless flow of great restaurant coffee and about 6 flavors of fruit punch. No, don't you dare spike it! You'd see crutches, canes, walkers, and wheelchairs go flying to the dumpsters. lol You've been my cyber buddy for several years and I look forward to meeting you in person. Nurse Amy and hubby, Loren, are clearing their calendars so as not to miss you. Loren really squinted an ear when you started pickin' and Amy is extremely easy to love. The gig will be something that you will treasure forever, Danny, and my thank yous seem grossly inadequate but thank you again from the bottom o' me wee Oyrish 'art. Donny SoundClick: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1209254&content=music SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/donald-gaynor BIAB 2021 w/current updates.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250377 05/19/14 12:26 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	Originally Posted By: Danny C. Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: JosieC I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper! John, Just FYI . . . I would love to work live musicians on every gig, and yes would take less pay for many reasons. First of all I do not need the money, secondly I grew up playing with other musicians. But considering my age, the type of music I love to play and how that would relate with the age and type of musicians I would have knocking on my door as a result of a Graig's list ad, I will choose to go with the backing tracks every-time. So for me anyway, the thought of being able to work cheaper never enters into the thought process on the road to decision making. Later, Danny, I understand completely! And I think it is just fine to use backing tracks if it works for you! My only point was musicians who use backing tracks to keep their costs down while also complaining that clubs do open mics (or similar things) to cut costs is the pot calling the kettle black! For the record, I have no problem with folks who perform for free or folks who charge an arm and a leg if they can get it! Likewise I have no problem with a club owner bringing in free talent if the talent is willing to do it. One thing that sometimes gets forgotten in these conversations is many (most?) club owners/managers are not making a lot of money either!

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? JohnJohnJohn #250390 05/19/14 02:18 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida 90 dB Veteran
90 dB Veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida	Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: Danny C. Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: JosieC I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper! John, Just FYI . . . I would love to work live musicians on every gig, and yes would take less pay for many reasons. First of all I do not need the money, secondly I grew up playing with other musicians. But considering my age, the type of music I love to play and how that would relate with the age and type of musicians I would have knocking on my door as a result of a Graig's list ad, I will choose to go with the backing tracks every-time. So for me anyway, the thought of being able to work cheaper never enters into the thought process on the road to decision making. Later, Danny, I understand completely! And I think it is just fine to use backing tracks if it works for you! My only point was musicians who use backing tracks to keep their costs down while also complaining that clubs do open mics (or similar things) to cut costs is the pot calling the kettle black! For the record, I have no problem with folks who perform for free or folks who charge an arm and a leg if they can get it! Likewise I have no problem with a club owner bringing in free talent if the talent is willing to do it. One thing that sometimes gets forgotten in these conversations is many (most?) club owners/managers are not making a lot of money either! Really? Based on what? Your vast experience in clubs? Hilarious. Bugsey, you slay me. Dyslectics Untie! https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/90-db https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm_3mpivKYV7T7XFJmXL-GA

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250392 05/19/14 02:23 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,713 USA Danny C. OP Veteran
OP Danny C. Veteran Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,713 USA	Personal disclaimer: Let me also add that there are exceptions to all rules, even the ones I make up in my mind, tongue planted firmly in cheek. For instance if was aware of a friend or anyone trying to save a struggling restaurant or bar and he/she thought maybe live music could save the joint, I'd be the 1st in line to offer my services. I never have painted with brushes that wide. I think we all know the examples I am "painting" when I say business's who want free entertainment. Later, Danny C. www.dannycampo.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Danny-Campo/379776252109306?skip_nax_wizard=true The More You Drink The Better I Sound

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? 90 dB #250407 05/19/14 04:42 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	Originally Posted By: 90 dB Really? Based on what? Your vast experience in clubs? Hilarious. Bugsey, you slay me. well, Chuckles, not much of a challenge, you seem fairly easy to slay! Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/19/14 04:43 PM.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? 90 dB #250456 05/20/14 04:34 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,665 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,665 Middlesex, NC	Originally Posted By: 90 dB ....... I was merely pointing out that a statement like "It's not work. It's music." is fatuous. Load in, setup, 4 hours of playing, load out and a few hours travel time is indeed work. Not to mention the hundreds of hours in rehearsal, arranging, etc. Anyone who thinks that isn't work is either delusional or has never done it. We had some bass bins that were nicknamed "The Beasts" due to their size and weight, and were best handled by at least 2 people. Yeah, trucking in the gear is a hard job. Our band had a road crew but we often helped out in the setup and sometimes the load out. But even our road crew loved the job and loved the music. The head roadie even told me it wasn't work to him. It was a passion. But why do you do it? Is the reason you do it to simply for a paycheck....Simply to make money at the end of the night? Then yes... you had a job.... and yes, it was a hard job to do and it was work to you. But..... If you did it because, when the lights come up, the long hours of practice, rehearsals, and arranging and getting it right meant nothing compared to the precious and amazing few minutes of time you were on stage playing that song flawlessly, because the music was inside you and needed a way out, because you wanted to share the pure joy you felt from the music, because there was nothing else in the world you would rather do, because the cheers and applause of the crowd meant everything to you, because there was a passion driving you.... then perhaps you are a musician. Trust me when I say I have known people who could play and sing who were of both kinds...... some were there because singing a song beat working at Walmart or digging a foundation footing, and there were others who where there because of the passion, and there was music that needed to be expressed. A wise man once said: If you love what you do and you then go and do it, you will never work a day in your life. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250460 05/20/14 04:41 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 330 Lancashire UK Cornet Nev Journeyman
Cornet Nev Journeyman Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 330 Lancashire UK	OK, two different view points from me. The first view point being in some agreement with this :- Surely we have seen the one where the bar, club, or restaurant owner gives it the "How much? that is a lot of money!" The musician spokesman for the band then says, "OK get six plumbers to work for four hours on a Sunday night and we will do it for half their price!" The second viewpoint being :- Now for a fully amateur musician playing in a typical UK brass band, it is amateur status so no individual pay to any player in the band. The band charges £300 to £400 for a two part concert lasting around the four hour mark and that band gets regular work as far as a brass band goes. Which in reality will be between four to maybe fifteen paying jobs in twelve months. (Depending on the band and its reputation) In between that the band enters contests where the band actually has to pay a small fee to enter. If the band is any good such as the band I recently left, good results on the contest stage means money prizes, and depending on the contest, venue, and organisation, the prizes can be as little as £100 for first prize with lower amounts for second or third place, with often a third place being nothing more than a cup to put on the trophy shelf. Other contests can of course give a first prize of as much as £1000. However, many contest entering bands don't get anything more than a piece of paper telling them their fourth, fifth or even tenth place was due to what the adjudicator found was faulty in their performance. Why do the contesting? because good results, due to good hard work from all players means a higher reputation, which in turn gets better paid concert or other work. Whatever the amount of cash a brass band accumulates over say a twelve month period, that money will be divided among many claimants, rent, power and heat for the rehearsal venue, new or replacement band uniforms, new or replacement instruments, as although most small instrument players can afford to buy their own, the price of a new double Bb bass tuba and the other large instruments is way out of reach of most pockets, so the band itself has to foot the bill for replacement of worn out or too badly damaged instruments. There are of course many other small to large costs too, and for some bands a small retaining fee is paid to the MD which may be only a few hundred a year. Where does the time go in between the paying jobs after playing the contests? Mostly on rehearsals twice a week for two to three hours each night just to get the polish on the next contest piece, or to get the seven to fifteen pieces of music fully up to speed and as good as possible for the concert. As I said, all amateur players who do it for the love of it, the only man or woman who gets some pay is as I said the MD and that is usually only a token fee. Bearing in mind some players do seek out paid work where trumpet, trombone, or other orchestral, jazz, and other brass work will pay them individually, but they have to be very good players as individuals before they can gain that work. Most, even though may be good enough, don't look for that work, mainly because of lack of time or they just don't need it. Just a different viewpoint on the discussion about musicians and being paid to be one.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250468 05/20/14 05:48 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn A club owner cuts costs by having an open mic night and thereby avoids paying the musicians. You sell/support software designed to allow musicians to cut costs by eliminating the drummer and/or the bass player and/or others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing? Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: 90 dB Actually, it's not. baloney! if you are using backing tracks to eliminate the cost of other musicians you have no right to complain about a club owner using open mics to eliminate the cost of musicians! Somehow I often see comparisons to BiaB and backing tracks as putting musicians out of work. I play in a duo with backing tracks. The places I play would never hire and have never hired a 4 or more piece band. In most cases the "stage" isn't big enough. Put the duo in a club where a 4-7 piece band normally plays and it doesn't work. Both the sound and the visual impact is lost in a big room. So backing tracks can make a duo sound better, but they aren't putting anyone out of work. We worked the cruise ships for 3 years. We played in the small lounge where duos have always played. The 7 piece band played in the bigger lounge, the orchestra played in the biggest room, and the single played in the piano bar. We play in a couple of yacht and country clubs. They have always used duos for the regular dinner/dance nights, and when it comes to the Commodore's Ball, or the Change of Watch party, we never get the gig, they hire 5 or more pieces. We play every Tuesday at a marina with a deck that perhaps fits 50 people - tops. Since it's outdoors, the overflow people bring lawn chairs or sit at picnic tables in the sun. If a 4 piece band with drums were to set up on the deck, they would lose the seating for a dozen or more people. We played in a hotel that had a big room downstairs and a small room upstairs. The big room held over 100 people and they hired 4 or 5 piece bands. We played upstairs in the small room where we huddled in a corner and they put down one of those 10X10 feet portable dance floors. People had dinner and danced after dinner, but it wasn't the singles bar downstairs by any stretch of the imagination. In the 1970s I played in a duo with a keyboard player and a drum machine. We competed with the 2 guitar and a drum machine duos. We never competed with a 4 piece band and still do not. The duos today sound fuller than the old-fashioned 2 musicians and a drum machine duo, but they do not put anyone out of work. Playing for free does put people out of work. If the freebie person wasn't there, there would be no entertainment and the club would have to hire someone to keep the audience entertained. Hige difference. So for all of you people who play for free, think about how you would feel if your boss gave you a day off each week without pay because someone, perhaps less talented than you, would do your job for free. And then think about whether you want to do that to a fellow musician or not. There are plenty of non-commercial places you can play for free. When I was young we used to set up in public parks, someone's living room (we even invited friends who would bring food and drink), volunteer for a worthy charity, busk in a public place, and so on. But please don't take the food out of another musician's mouth. It's getting more and more difficult to make a living playing music, please don't make it worse. We do charities, and we play yearly at the Veteran's Administration hospital. It's a 60 mile drive from our house, the parking is terrible, schlepping the gear is a pain, but when we are done, the warm reception and the friendly chats with the wheelchair bound former soldiers make it all worth while. That's much better than playing for free while the club owner, bartender, wait staff, dishwasher, janitor, bookkeeper, host/hostess, and everybody else is making money from your talents. Playing for free is pirating gigs from small time musicians - and that's worse than pirating a rich musician's CD. Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250471 05/20/14 06:32 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida 90 dB Veteran
90 dB Veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida	"If you did it because, when the lights come up, the long hours of practice, rehearsals, and arranging and getting it right meant nothing compared to the precious and amazing few minutes of time you were on stage playing that song flawlessly, because the music was inside you and needed a way out, because you wanted to share the pure joy you felt from the music, because there was nothing else in the world you would rather do, because the cheers and applause of the crowd meant everything to you, because there was a passion driving you.... then perhaps you are a musician." Never heard such horse pucky in my life. “...when the lights come up...”? Really? “... because the music was inside you and needed a way out”. Jeez........... We've never had a “road crew” with roadies or groupies or yellow M&M's and Dom Pérignon on our rider, but then, we're obviously not at your level. Of course, we've only been doing it all over the country for over 40 years, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. “...because there was a passion driving you.... then perhaps you are a musician.” “Passion”? Man, that's pure poetry. Dyslectics Untie! https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/90-db https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm_3mpivKYV7T7XFJmXL-GA

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250472 05/20/14 06:43 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815 Kemmrich Expert
Kemmrich Expert Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815	I think "open mics" and "writer's nights" where folks get 15 minute slots to play new material, practice their performing skills and such probably should not be drawn into the "putting working musicians out of work" discussion. But you can if you want to. Of course, one night for open mic, a couple nights of karaoke, a couple of nights for the DJ and a couple of sport nights and then you are in trouble! Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250473 05/20/14 06:56 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,608 Sterling, Va raymb1 Veteran
raymb1 Veteran Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,608 Sterling, Va	Re: Passion v.s. Job. It's both. Bills have to be paid, rent/mortgage,food,car payments/upkeep etc. Of course if you're independently wealthy then none of that matters! Later, Ray Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Notes Norton #250480 05/20/14 08:06 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	Originally Posted By: Notes Norton Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn A club owner cuts costs by having an open mic night and thereby avoids paying the musicians. You sell/support software designed to allow musicians to cut costs by eliminating the drummer and/or the bass player and/or others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing? Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: 90 dB Actually, it's not. baloney! if you are using backing tracks to eliminate the cost of other musicians you have no right to complain about a club owner using open mics to eliminate the cost of musicians! Somehow I often see comparisons to BiaB and backing tracks as putting musicians out of work. I play in a duo with backing tracks. The places I play would never hire and have never hired a 4 or more piece band. In most cases the "stage" isn't big enough. Put the duo in a club where a 4-7 piece band normally plays and it doesn't work. Both the sound and the visual impact is lost in a big room. So backing tracks can make a duo sound better, but they aren't putting anyone out of work. We worked the cruise ships for 3 years. We played in the small lounge where duos have always played. The 7 piece band played in the bigger lounge, the orchestra played in the biggest room, and the single played in the piano bar. We play in a couple of yacht and country clubs. They have always used duos for the regular dinner/dance nights, and when it comes to the Commodore's Ball, or the Change of Watch party, we never get the gig, they hire 5 or more pieces. We play every Tuesday at a marina with a deck that perhaps fits 50 people - tops. Since it's outdoors, the overflow people bring lawn chairs or sit at picnic tables in the sun. If a 4 piece band with drums were to set up on the deck, they would lose the seating for a dozen or more people. We played in a hotel that had a big room downstairs and a small room upstairs. The big room held over 100 people and they hired 4 or 5 piece bands. We played upstairs in the small room where we huddled in a corner and they put down one of those 10X10 feet portable dance floors. People had dinner and danced after dinner, but it wasn't the singles bar downstairs by any stretch of the imagination. In the 1970s I played in a duo with a keyboard player and a drum machine. We competed with the 2 guitar and a drum machine duos. We never competed with a 4 piece band and still do not. The duos today sound fuller than the old-fashioned 2 musicians and a drum machine duo, but they do not put anyone out of work. Playing for free does put people out of work. If the freebie person wasn't there, there would be no entertainment and the club would have to hire someone to keep the audience entertained. Hige difference. So for all of you people who play for free, think about how you would feel if your boss gave you a day off each week without pay because someone, perhaps less talented than you, would do your job for free. And then think about whether you want to do that to a fellow musician or not. There are plenty of non-commercial places you can play for free. When I was young we used to set up in public parks, someone's living room (we even invited friends who would bring food and drink), volunteer for a worthy charity, busk in a public place, and so on. But please don't take the food out of another musician's mouth. It's getting more and more difficult to make a living playing music, please don't make it worse. We do charities, and we play yearly at the Veteran's Administration hospital. It's a 60 mile drive from our house, the parking is terrible, schlepping the gear is a pain, but when we are done, the warm reception and the friendly chats with the wheelchair bound former soldiers make it all worth while. That's much better than playing for free while the club owner, bartender, wait staff, dishwasher, janitor, bookkeeper, host/hostess, and everybody else is making money from your talents. Playing for free is pirating gigs from small time musicians - and that's worse than pirating a rich musician's CD. "So listen up kiddies...if you play bass or drums (or any other instrument) I won't hire you because I have software that does your job for me. But don't you even think about going to a club and playing for cheap because then you are a pirate who is impacting my ability to work there!" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? JohnJohnJohn #250485 05/20/14 08:14 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida 90 dB Veteran
90 dB Veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida	Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: Notes Norton Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn A club owner cuts costs by having an open mic night and thereby avoids paying the musicians. You sell/support software designed to allow musicians to cut costs by eliminating the drummer and/or the bass player and/or others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing? Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: 90 dB Actually, it's not. baloney! if you are using backing tracks to eliminate the cost of other musicians you have no right to complain about a club owner using open mics to eliminate the cost of musicians! Somehow I often see comparisons to BiaB and backing tracks as putting musicians out of work. I play in a duo with backing tracks. The places I play would never hire and have never hired a 4 or more piece band. In most cases the "stage" isn't big enough. Put the duo in a club where a 4-7 piece band normally plays and it doesn't work. Both the sound and the visual impact is lost in a big room. So backing tracks can make a duo sound better, but they aren't putting anyone out of work. We worked the cruise ships for 3 years. We played in the small lounge where duos have always played. The 7 piece band played in the bigger lounge, the orchestra played in the biggest room, and the single played in the piano bar. We play in a couple of yacht and country clubs. They have always used duos for the regular dinner/dance nights, and when it comes to the Commodore's Ball, or the Change of Watch party, we never get the gig, they hire 5 or more pieces. We play every Tuesday at a marina with a deck that perhaps fits 50 people - tops. Since it's outdoors, the overflow people bring lawn chairs or sit at picnic tables in the sun. If a 4 piece band with drums were to set up on the deck, they would lose the seating for a dozen or more people. We played in a hotel that had a big room downstairs and a small room upstairs. The big room held over 100 people and they hired 4 or 5 piece bands. We played upstairs in the small room where we huddled in a corner and they put down one of those 10X10 feet portable dance floors. People had dinner and danced after dinner, but it wasn't the singles bar downstairs by any stretch of the imagination. In the 1970s I played in a duo with a keyboard player and a drum machine. We competed with the 2 guitar and a drum machine duos. We never competed with a 4 piece band and still do not. The duos today sound fuller than the old-fashioned 2 musicians and a drum machine duo, but they do not put anyone out of work. Playing for free does put people out of work. If the freebie person wasn't there, there would be no entertainment and the club would have to hire someone to keep the audience entertained. Hige difference. So for all of you people who play for free, think about how you would feel if your boss gave you a day off each week without pay because someone, perhaps less talented than you, would do your job for free. And then think about whether you want to do that to a fellow musician or not. There are plenty of non-commercial places you can play for free. When I was young we used to set up in public parks, someone's living room (we even invited friends who would bring food and drink), volunteer for a worthy charity, busk in a public place, and so on. But please don't take the food out of another musician's mouth. It's getting more and more difficult to make a living playing music, please don't make it worse. We do charities, and we play yearly at the Veteran's Administration hospital. It's a 60 mile drive from our house, the parking is terrible, schlepping the gear is a pain, but when we are done, the warm reception and the friendly chats with the wheelchair bound former soldiers make it all worth while. That's much better than playing for free while the club owner, bartender, wait staff, dishwasher, janitor, bookkeeper, host/hostess, and everybody else is making money from your talents. Playing for free is pirating gigs from small time musicians - and that's worse than pirating a rich musician's CD. "So listen up kiddies...if you play bass or drums (or any other instrument) I won't hire you because I have software that does your job for me. But don't you even think about going to a club and playing for cheap because then you are a pirate who is impacting my ability to work there!" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moron Dyslectics Untie! https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/90-db https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm_3mpivKYV7T7XFJmXL-GA

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250490 05/20/14 08:32 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Quote: get a plumber to work for four hours on a Sunday night and I will do it for half the price!" this is goin' on my business cards!! (and maybe on a car magnet too) I have never seen a simpler, more succinct statement to illustrate the disconnect between how people appropriate value to musicians as opposed to any other craftsman https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250494 05/20/14 08:39 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	this isn't just a musician thing, BTW... Bayer aspirin still gets a premium price for their product in spite of the fact that there are many off brands of competing generic aspirin. But they advertise. Ads of that type perform the function called "product differentiation", in which they make the claim of being superior in some way (safer, more controlled, whatever) 1) People won't spend more to get the same quality.. but they WILL spend more for higher quality. 2) Most consumers don't know how to tell the difference. 3) it is a sad truth that most people simply accept what they're told 4) so start an ad campaign of product differentiation by telling the public you are better than the rest. 5) you DO advertise, right? https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250496 05/20/14 08:48 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: 1,046 Arizona Scott H. Olson Expert
Scott H. Olson Expert Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: 1,046 Arizona	I know this is a serious thread, but I can't help wondering if Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler don't have some culpability in all of this. 'Money for nothin' and your....'

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? 90 dB #250498 05/20/14 08:58 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	Originally Posted By: 90 dB Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn Originally Posted By: Notes Norton Somehow I often see comparisons to BiaB and backing tracks as putting musicians out of work. I play in a duo with backing tracks. The places I play would never hire and have never hired a 4 or more piece band. In most cases the "stage" isn't big enough. Put the duo in a club where a 4-7 piece band normally plays and it doesn't work. Both the sound and the visual impact is lost in a big room. So backing tracks can make a duo sound better, but they aren't putting anyone out of work. We worked the cruise ships for 3 years. We played in the small lounge where duos have always played. The 7 piece band played in the bigger lounge, the orchestra played in the biggest room, and the single played in the piano bar. We play in a couple of yacht and country clubs. They have always used duos for the regular dinner/dance nights, and when it comes to the Commodore's Ball, or the Change of Watch party, we never get the gig, they hire 5 or more pieces. We play every Tuesday at a marina with a deck that perhaps fits 50 people - tops. Since it's outdoors, the overflow people bring lawn chairs or sit at picnic tables in the sun. If a 4 piece band with drums were to set up on the deck, they would lose the seating for a dozen or more people. We played in a hotel that had a big room downstairs and a small room upstairs. The big room held over 100 people and they hired 4 or 5 piece bands. We played upstairs in the small room where we huddled in a corner and they put down one of those 10X10 feet portable dance floors. People had dinner and danced after dinner, but it wasn't the singles bar downstairs by any stretch of the imagination. In the 1970s I played in a duo with a keyboard player and a drum machine. We competed with the 2 guitar and a drum machine duos. We never competed with a 4 piece band and still do not. The duos today sound fuller than the old-fashioned 2 musicians and a drum machine duo, but they do not put anyone out of work. Playing for free does put people out of work. If the freebie person wasn't there, there would be no entertainment and the club would have to hire someone to keep the audience entertained. Hige difference. So for all of you people who play for free, think about how you would feel if your boss gave you a day off each week without pay because someone, perhaps less talented than you, would do your job for free. And then think about whether you want to do that to a fellow musician or not. There are plenty of non-commercial places you can play for free. When I was young we used to set up in public parks, someone's living room (we even invited friends who would bring food and drink), volunteer for a worthy charity, busk in a public place, and so on. But please don't take the food out of another musician's mouth. It's getting more and more difficult to make a living playing music, please don't make it worse. We do charities, and we play yearly at the Veteran's Administration hospital. It's a 60 mile drive from our house, the parking is terrible, schlepping the gear is a pain, but when we are done, the warm reception and the friendly chats with the wheelchair bound former soldiers make it all worth while. That's much better than playing for free while the club owner, bartender, wait staff, dishwasher, janitor, bookkeeper, host/hostess, and everybody else is making money from your talents. Playing for free is pirating gigs from small time musicians - and that's worse than pirating a rich musician's CD. "So listen up kiddies...if you play bass or drums (or any other instrument) I won't hire you because I have software that does your job for me. But don't you even think about going to a club and playing for cheap because then you are a pirate who is impacting my ability to work there!" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moron Hey I found you a replacement for that $300 gig...trouble is this one is $300/month! http://goo.gl/E5TPra Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/20/14 08:59 AM.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250502 05/20/14 09:30 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	this song touches on several different recent threads... product differentiation... the choice to self promote instead of accepting a lesser deal from the studios... Ani DiFranco: "the Million You Never Made" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTWJ37DAhoY caution: contains at least one F bomb https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Pat Marr #250514 05/20/14 12:11 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,713 USA Danny C. OP Veteran
OP Danny C. Veteran Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,713 USA	Powerful piece of writing Pat. Thanks for the post. Later, Danny C. www.dannycampo.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Danny-Campo/379776252109306?skip_nax_wizard=true The More You Drink The Better I Sound

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #250517 05/20/14 12:13 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,665 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,665 Middlesex, NC	Wow..... somebody's having a bad day...... Take a few seconds and watch this short video...... Good advice feel better now? Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/20/14 12:14 PM. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

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