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Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251350 05/27/14 08:06 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC	Notes, I agree with you 100%. But if your reply was based on an interpretation of my last post that you believe indicated I don't think you are an artist AND a performer, then apparently I did not communicate my thoughts effectively. I hoped it would be commonly agreed that music is art. The point of my post was to differentiate the choices made when somebody fuses art and business, as opposed to art for art's sake alone. For convenience's sake I referred to the two groups in overly simplified terms. My mistake, sorry if my communication style was misleading. I started out in a fine arts program until a counselor pointed out that if I actually want to illustrate for books, magazines etc I should probably be in the commercial art curriculum instead of the fine arts curriculum. Art for arts sake is wide open in the way you approach it, but art for commercial applications requires specific additional skills that are typically not covered in the fine arts programs. And so it is with music. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251353 05/27/14 08:21 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida 90 dB Veteran
90 dB Veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida	I art a musician, not no artist mon. Where de rum? Dyslectics Untie! https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/90-db https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm_3mpivKYV7T7XFJmXL-GA

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Notes Norton #251381 05/27/14 11:36 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va raymb1 Veteran
raymb1 Veteran Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va	Notes, your post just about covers everything. I'll repeat again, good players will always find gigs, bad ones, for the most part, will play for free or next to nothing. Later, Ray Last edited by raymb1; 05/27/14 11:37 AM. Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? raymb1 #251394 05/27/14 02:12 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,040 Derry,Ireland musiclover Veteran
musiclover Veteran Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,040 Derry,Ireland	Originally Posted By: raymb1 Notes, your post just about covers everything. I'll repeat again, good players will always find gigs, bad ones, for the most part, will play for free or next to nothing. Later, Ray Totally missing the point yet again, The so called bad player playing for free, probably doesn't care a damm about getting paid and probably is enjoying himself more than the so called pro and I use that term loosely. 90db your demo sounds great, great upbeat sound. I have nothing against backing tracks use them in biab when I try writing a song. The only thing is probably a track has to be muted or drowned out when a person is playing live, and the muted or drwoned out track may have a better part than the actual instrument player on stage. But what the hell, its better to be seen playing something, else you are just a singer. Isn't called show business for nothing. Musiclover Last edited by musiclover; 05/27/14 03:10 PM. Musiclover My music https://www.youtube.com/user/donegalprideofall Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2025, Cubase 14, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? musiclover #251490 05/28/14 07:10 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	Quote: Isn't called show business for nothing. Good point. I’ve never wanted to be a “showman”. I’ve never wanted to be an “entertainer.” The only thing I’ve wanted as a musician is to play for people who wanted to quietly LISTEN to the music instead of expecting me to entertain them while they ignored me. It’s perfectly okay for folks to get rowdy between songs, but while I’m playing I want them to either shut up and listen, …or leave immediately. That’s part of why I chose to focus primarily on acoustic music. Wood and strings. Honest and intimate. It can be played on your front porch when the electricity is off or around a campfire at night. I’ve been called a “purist” on here more than once. I now also find myself thinking about music in terms of art or entertainment. I’ll take “art” 99.99% of the time. If I hear 2 instruments coming through the PA system, I want to see 2 musicians on stage. If I hear 5 instruments, then I want to see 5 musicians on stage. My favorite combo when playing live is a duo. Preferably guitar and mandolin. Both instruments are well suited to lead and a solid rhythm backup. But as I’ve repeatedly stated on these forums, that’s just my opinion. I don’t speak for anyone other than myself. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valid opinion. Keep it simple and honest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1cWO_38Bw&index=21&list=PL7MZ550uvzVrKj0jp-Fr-Pvc75KOrJsOV Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251495 05/28/14 07:27 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC	Actually, Bob, I think there are probably very few of us who don't like what you're talking about. But that's not where the opportunities are. Playing to a respectful "listening room" is usually a privilege enjoyed only by people who have earned their reputation by years of playing all the places that AREN'T concert halls. If you can pull it off without taking the usual route, I say more power to ya! You've got more on the ball than I ever will! (and I say that sincerely) PS, the Sierra Hull clip was AWESOME! https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251514 05/28/14 08:01 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,395 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,395 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Pat, no offense was taken and I never thought you inferred what I do isn't art. I do understand art for art's sake. My wife is a fine artist. On the other hand, I've seen and heard a lot of attempts at fine art that in my opinion are not fine art at all, even if they are original. Note I said "In my opinion" because art is subjective. My wife is a trained fine artist, and thanks to her, I've learned a lot about the subject and how to appreciate art. I've been to some of the world's finest art museums like the Metropolitan, MoMa, Chicago, US and British National Galleries, Tate, Prado, Sofia Reina, Ufizzi, Pitti, Budapest, Rijksmuseum, Van Gogh, and dozens of others, plus regional galleries and numerous road artist shows. I've seen great art, and I've seen what is supposed to be great art but to me was either kitsch or B.S. Just because it's original, doesn't make it art either in the music business or the visual arts. And conversely, just because it's popular doesn't me it isn't art. And where do you draw the line. Is Hopper's "Night Hawks" art or illustration? Is Paul Simon's "The Boxer" a pop song or art music? These and so many others seem to straddle the line, and whatever category you put them in, I like them. Jackson Pollock is considered to be a fine artist, but to me his work looks like a house painter's drop cloth, and for my way of thinking, there is too much left to chance to be fine art - others have the right to disagree. On backing tracks. I make my own backing tracks, planning the arrangement, recording each instrument into a sequencer live and in real time, and sometimes augmenting them with parts extracted from BiaB. What I like to do most in BiaB is to record the top line of a part I want to add, let BiaB do the "Mule Work" of adding the harmony parts and import that into the sequencer. BiaB harmonizes just like the Berklee Correspondence course taught me how to do it. Is arranging music an art? I don't care, and if so, are my arrangements good enough to cross that line? I like to create my backing tracks and I'm very proud of my work. If arranging for a sequenced backing track isn't art, then what Nelson Riddle did with an orchestra isn't art either. If I go out and if the band has backing tracks, I'll evaluate whether they are karaoke tracks or not, and evaluate them along with the rest of the music. I can't help it, it's what I do. I analyze and look for both the good and bad in every piece of music I hear. To me music is a continuum, from kitsch to art. That Muddy Waters 12 bar blues song is a different kind of art from that Prokofiev Symphony, and although I know the Prokofiev is much more complex, and takes much more knowledge of music theory, I still like Muddy Waters. So where do I draw the line between pop and art? Jethro Tull, Yes, Moody Blues, Gino Vanelli, and so many others seemed to cross that line, but still, it's hard to define where that line is. In the end, it all comes down to personal taste. To me there are only two kinds of music, good music and music written and/or played for someone other than me. Another musician may not want to hear backing tracks, and that's OK. I don't want to gaze at Jackson Pollock or a Mark Rothko work because they don't do it for me. Beethoven, Mozart and so many others did works on commission - artists or illustrators? I think Dave Brubeck's "Blue Rondo ala Turk" is a piece of fine art, but anything I've ever heard Ornette Coleman did never spoke to me. Who should be the arbiter of what is great art? Who has the right to say Pollock is fine art and Rockwell is not? I've never been able to draw the line. I recognize obvious kitch, and also fine art but where to draw all the lines in between is something I've never been able to do. I've heard great groups with backing tracks, and I've heard great soloists playing in front of an orchestra reading charts - live backing tracks? I've heard many of the greatest symphony orchestras in the world playing cover songs by dead European composers. Cover bands. Two weeks ago the local blues society came out to our gig as a "Hooked On Blues" event. Many of the members are musicians. Nobody seemed to mind the backing tracks, because the applause and the looks on their faces told me they enjoyed the music very much. There are so many tools to making music, whether you use backing tracks, use BiaB right out of the box, or are a purist using only hand made acoustic instruments, or play in front of an orchestra reading charts, or whether you cover someone else's material note for note, if you have an audience you must be at least OK. If you have a dedicated audience you must be good. Whether it's art or not? Who cares? Whether you pass an emotion from yourself to the audience, you should care. And IMHO there is nothing wrong with being an entertainer either, List, Paganini, and so many of the greatest musicians of all time were also entertainers. This has been all my personal opinions on art, and I don't think any one person or committee should be the arbiter of what is art or not, so feel free to have another equally valid opinion. Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? bobcflatpicker #251521 05/28/14 08:42 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,480 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,480 Hamlin NY	Bob, It is great that you can still perform like you do. However it sounds like your area is quite a bit different than mine. In the late 60’s I had a jazz trio, B3, guitar and drums, that played some covers but a lot of original music also. We played in lounges where people did just listen. We loved it and they loved it. However those places disappeared. They wanted rock, country or country rock as those in attendance apparently drank a lot more, thus more money for the owners. There were a number of combos like ours that either changed formats or quit playing. We changed into a wedding band around 1970 and we went from playing what we wanted to what they the customer wanted, i.e. we became a business. Very few, if any, originals at a gig. All the customer wanted was a recognizable beat so that is what we delivered. We must have been successful at it, as we were extremely busy until we got old and the wedding circuit turned to DJs. I still hate DJs! When things were slow during the winter we were still busy playing at VFWs, Elk’s clubs, American Legions, Moose halls and private parties. The only free gigs we did were at the VA hospitols. We played live, no backing tracks. However I much rather here a musician(s) using backing tracks that listening to a DJ or kariokie. So the question is am I an artist or an entertainer? I don’t think that you can separate the two. The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly." 64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251526 05/28/14 08:58 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC	once again, Notes, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. But this quote especially caught my attention: Quote: Jackson Pollock is considered to be a fine artist, but to me his work looks like a house painter's drop cloth, and for my way of thinking, there is too much left to chance to be fine art - others have the right to disagree. this observation is the basis for my own subjective definition of art. To me, an endeavor approaches art in direct proportion to how difficult it is to reproduce. Splatter paint on canvas? I can do that too, so to me that fails the reproducibility test. But when I look at an Andrew Wyeth painting.. I can't do that. When I watch olympic gymnasts... I can't do that when I watch Tommy Emmanuel.. I can't do that etc etc etc In my opinion, reproducing songs from the past and nailing the tones, notes, inflections etc is something that most people can't do too. It may not be the same art as the original work, but it definitely requires skill and dedication to task in order to do it. In some ways, it is harder than the original, because they played in their own natural style, whereas the cover song performer has to duplicate many artists styles, often on multiple intruments. And it takes a lot of work getting the same tone in the instruments and a similar mix If I get up in front of an audience and sing and solo I'm already doing what another performer without trax is doing... but the trax fills in the white space and becomes the time machine that takes the audience back to the first time they heard the song. In short, it challenges me as much to make the trax as it does to learn my performance parts. These are the first reasons why I choose this route. The second reason is that I want to earn money and playing covers seems to be the best way to do that. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Notes Norton #251530 05/28/14 09:05 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793	Originally Posted By: Notes Norton In the end, it all comes down to personal taste. To me there are only two kinds of music, good music and music written and/or played for someone other than me. very well said, Notes!

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? musiclover #251532 05/28/14 09:09 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va raymb1 Veteran
raymb1 Veteran Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va	Originally Posted By: musiclover Originally Posted By: raymb1 Notes, your post just about covers everything. I'll repeat again, good players will always find gigs, bad ones, for the most part, will play for free or next to nothing. Later, Ray Totally missing the point yet again, The so called bad player playing for free, probably doesn't care a damm about getting paid and probably is enjoying himself more than the so called pro and I use that term loosely. 90db your demo sounds great, great upbeat sound. I have nothing against backing tracks use them in biab when I try writing a song. The only thing is probably a track has to be muted or drowned out when a person is playing live, and the muted or drwoned out track may have a better part than the actual instrument player on stage. But what the hell, its better to be seen playing something, else you are just a singer. Isn't called show business for nothing. Musiclover I'm not missing any points. Notes has already covered all of them. I've made a decent living playing piano for over 50 years. I work solo, trio, quartet, quintet and big band gigs. BIAB is included on my solo gigs. I've seen too many places where club owners will get bad entertainment just to save some of their budget. Those bad musicians who are playing free or next to nothing are depriving qualified musicians of gigs. I'm done with this thread. I don't anyone's position on free vs pay will be changed. Later, Ray Last edited by raymb1; 05/28/14 09:13 AM. Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251535 05/28/14 09:24 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793	I find it very interesting how different people define "art". Personal preference almost always comes into play. My son and I have visited The Art Institute of Chicago many times. He is an artist and a lot of my inspiration to write songs comes from seeing how passionate he is about his art. On a recent visit to the Art Institute we viewed an entire gallery that was filled with different sized canvases but they were all mostly blank. If you looked closely you could see some minimal shading and markings on some of them. But to me, they looked mostly blank. Of course, we spent the next few days arguing about whether or not they were really art. My position being "if there is nothing much on the canvas it can't be art" and "if I can do it it can't be art" and "if it takes so little effort it can't be art"! But my son held fast to his viewpoint that art is subjective and he pointed out how my metrics fail in many examples I do consider as art. So, even though I still have trouble considering mostly blank canvases as art, I have learned a lot about art from my son. Mostly I have learned that just because I don't get it or it does not fit with my perceptions of art, that does not mean it is not art. It just means I don't prefer it. Interesting side effect of that realization...I am starting to appreciate a lot more art than I ever did before!

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? raymb1 #251536 05/28/14 09:27 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793	Originally Posted By: raymb1 Originally Posted By: musiclover Originally Posted By: raymb1 Notes, your post just about covers everything. I'll repeat again, good players will always find gigs, bad ones, for the most part, will play for free or next to nothing. Later, Ray Totally missing the point yet again, The so called bad player playing for free, probably doesn't care a damm about getting paid and probably is enjoying himself more than the so called pro and I use that term loosely. 90db your demo sounds great, great upbeat sound. I have nothing against backing tracks use them in biab when I try writing a song. The only thing is probably a track has to be muted or drowned out when a person is playing live, and the muted or drwoned out track may have a better part than the actual instrument player on stage. But what the hell, its better to be seen playing something, else you are just a singer. Isn't called show business for nothing. Musiclover I'm not missing any points. Notes has already covered all of them. I've made a decent living playing piano for over 50 years. I work solo, trio, quartet, quintet and big band gigs. BIAB is included on my solo gigs. I've seen too many places where club owners will get bad entertainment just to save some of their budget. Those bad musicians who are playing free or next to nothing are depriving qualified musicians of gigs. I'm done with this thread. I don't anyone's position on free vs pay will be changed. Later, Ray it is just not so black & white Ray! I have heard plenty of great musicians playing for free and I have paid top dollar for some lame performances!

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? MarioD #251566 05/28/14 10:44 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA bobcflatpicker Veteran
bobcflatpicker Veteran Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,251 WV, USA	Originally Posted By: MarioD Bob, It is great that you can still perform like you do. However it sounds like your area is quite a bit different than mine. Mario, I'm not performing anymore. I consider it an accomplishment just to wake up and give a rat's a*s whether or not the sun shines. The opinions I've stated about playing for others haven't changed much since I was a child learning to play guitar I've always wondered why musicians would play live for an audience that ignored them. A small amount of money isn't a good enough reason. If people just want hear music in the background, why not just play mp3"s? It's easier and it sounds better! Bob ................................ http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? bobcflatpicker #251607 05/28/14 12:35 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,480 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,480 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker Originally Posted By: MarioD Bob, It is great that you can still perform like you do. However it sounds like your area is quite a bit different than mine. Mario, I'm not performing anymore. I consider it an accomplishment just to wake up and give a rat's a*s whether or not the sun shines. The opinions I've stated about playing for others haven't changed much since I was a child learning to play guitar I've always wondered why musicians would play live for an audience that ignored them. A small amount of money isn't a good enough reason. If people just want hear music in the background, why not just play mp3"s? It's easier and it sounds better! Bob I hear you about waking up! I feel the same way. Some of the people did ignore us while many liked us. Just because they were dancing didn’t mean they didn’t like us. In fact we believed that it was our job to play what they wanted to dance too and it wasn’t just a small amount of money. We made quite a bit of money playing at weddings. People started using DJs because they were cheaper than bands. DJs put a lot of bands out of business in this area. Peace my friend. The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly." 64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? bobcflatpicker #251705 05/28/14 05:28 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,463 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,463 Middlesex, NC	Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker I've always wondered why musicians would play live for an audience that ignored them. A small amount of money isn't a good enough reason. You're nothing but a glorified jukebox in that situation. But that is also, likely the fault of the band as it is anything else. If the band was "entertaining" the people, the people would be paying attention and be involved with the band and not ignoring them. That's the reason one of the better bands I played in was a "Show Band" as much as anything else. We played the music the way we wanted, but we also had a stage show and routines that kept the people watching to see what we would do next. Our drummer had more jokes in his head than some of the standup comedians and between songs he was talking and joking and the people loved it. We did things in the songs that people came back time after time to see us do and even requested that we do it. I carried some of that stuff into bands I was in later.... like this>>>> Family Tradition does TOP Just silly stuff but the people loved it and ate it up...and yeah, the drummer jumped over the drums onto the stage... A couple of mop heads for beards and a half baked Top song.... That was actually something the people would ask...."Are you going to do the ZZ Top song tonight? I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/28/14 05:29 PM. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251743 05/28/14 09:24 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,706 USA Danny C. OP Veteran
OP Danny C. Veteran Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,706 USA	To Bob's point regarding listening audiences. I had to get a few years under my belt playing gigs before I understood that they are different types of audiences, very often all intermingled within the same crowd. Now I break them down into "three groups" but I am sure others may have variations on my filing system. #1. The group no artist, musician or entertainer are not too crazy about, and that is the people who just want your music in the background to enhance, not interfere with nor overpower their conversations. #2. Bob's favorites (and mine "sometime" also) the listeners, they like to hear every note, every chord change and every lick. #3. The third are the dancers, they also like to hear every note, chord change and lick, with one caveat, they also like to feel them. I guess with this stated I am neither a artist or an entertainer but more of a psychologist/social worker. Man and do I have fun doing it. Might even start carrying a couch to my gigs. PS: And for what it's worth I am very happy that 99% of the time I either get the #2's and 3's a couple times a week. Later, Danny C. www.dannycampo.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Danny-Campo/379776252109306?skip_nax_wizard=true The More You Drink The Better I Sound

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251744 05/28/14 09:41 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,075 Winston-Salem, NC	Quote: I'm done with this thread. I don't anyone's position on free vs pay will be changed. Later, Ray yeah, that's true Ray... but discussions like this aren't as much about changing anyone's mind as about exploring how a lot of different people see the same thing. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251781 05/29/14 05:45 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,480 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,480 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Danny C. To Bob's point regarding listening audiences. I had to get a few years under my belt playing gigs before I understood that they are different types of audiences, very often all intermingled within the same crowd. Now I break them down into "three groups" but I am sure others may have variations on my filing system. #1. The group no artist, musician or entertainer are not too crazy about, and that is the people who just want your music in the background to enhance, not interfere with nor overpower their conversations. #2. Bob's favorites (and mine "sometime" also) the listeners, they like to hear every note, every chord change and every lick. #3. The third are the dancers, they also like to hear every note, chord change and lick, with one caveat, they also like to feel them. I guess with this stated I am neither a artist or an entertainer but more of a psychologist/social worker. Man and do I have fun doing it. Might even start carrying a couch to my gigs. PS: And for what it's worth I am very happy that 99% of the time I either get the #2's and 3's a couple times a week. Later, Danny you forgot one, the one that always wants to play “Stump the Band”! You know they always try to pick of song that is either irrelevant to the occasion or so obscure that no one knows it. The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly." 64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: Performing for Nothing, your views? Danny C. #251790 05/29/14 06:40 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,395 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,395 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	I've played various kinds of gigs so far in my career, restaurants, small bars, dance clubs, show clubs, cruise ships, and even concerts as the warm up act for the headliner. I've done a lot of 'sonic wallpaper' gigs where we were supposed to be background music and not listened to. We did one about a year ago, it was a tech convention, and we played while the attendees were having dinner - all gentle instrumentals. We of course did our best, and more or less played for each others ears. When dinner was over, dozens of people stopped by to tell us how much they enjoyed our music. We play a dinner gig at a yacht club where perhaps the last half to one hour is for dancing. Low volume (about 65db in front of the stage) and gentle so the people can talk during dinner. I've gotten used to the fact that people will seem like they are not listening, and at the end of the gig come up and say, "Thanks for a wonderful evening!" They may seem like they aren't listening, but that doesn't mean they aren't listening. And even if they are not and you are doing it just for the money that night; what's wrong with that? How many people here have day jobs that they do just for the money? I tried to get partially out of music twice in my life to become a weekend warrior. I took day jobs and tried to become a "normal" citizen. I guess it was societal pressure that made me want to try that. My first job was as a telephone installer/repairman. That was before cell phones when Ma Bell ruled the industry. Climbing telephone poles is dangerous. There are two kinds of people who climb poles, those who have fallen off the pole and those who haven't fallen of a pole YET. You hold yourself up with two spikes, each has about 1/16-1/8" stuck in a splintered pole that thousands of spikes have torn up in the past. So one day I had this pole to climb. It was in the back yard with 4 chain link fences intersecting at the pole. Something you don't want to straddle if you fall off the pole. There were also galvanized garbage pails to add insult to the injury. I climbed the pole and opened the terminal, and I immediately realized that hundreds of paper wasps had built their home in the terminal and weren't too happy about having the lid removed. Well doing something quickly on the pole can certainly mean a "cut out" which means you have time to say about "Oh shi" before you hit the ground. Four fences, garbage pails, and an anatomical part of me that wouldn't like that. So I slowly and carefully climbed down the pole with my heart pounding. Fortunately I didn't get bit. Now if I get a bad audience (which is extremely rare) or have to learn a song I don't like, I think of the wasps and everything is fine. A bad day playing music is better than a good day at any day gig I can think of. -------- Art? The problem I see in art, is that there is an elitist group that defines what good art is and what isn't good art. Often their blessings go to other people in the elitist group regardless of talent or lack of it. I've seen worse than those white canvases with a few brush strokes on them. Especially when it comes to installations; stacks of milk cartons, found items thrown in a trash pile, and the worst one I've seen, an old discarded mattress up against the wall covered with donuts. Art? I think not. But if the art elitists say it's art, the sheep will follow and claim it's art. In the late 50s or 60s a monkey did paintings and until they found out it was the artist's monkey, the adjectives just kept flying and they were considered master pieces. And what about Pollock? I saw a documentary where a woman living in a mobile home was given a Pollock her friend bought in a thrift store because it was the ugliest painting she has ever seen. The woman kept it, a friend suggested it might be a Pollock and it might be worth millions. She took the painting to art dealers and critics all over the country, and they all agreed it was a cheap imitation because it didn't have Pollock's soulful inspiration in it. And these people included curators in some of the top museums in the land. Well after some time, someone found Pollocks fingerprints on the back, had the paint analyzed and found it to be the same as the ones that were on the front and the lady was an instant millionaire and the most respected people of the art elite had to eat crow. ------ It's easy to measure technical ability. As mentioned Andrew Wyeth had great technical skill, and as far as I'm concerned did great art. Norman Rockwell had great technical skill and most artists consider him an illustrator. But technical ability doesn't make art. True art has to have something that transcends mere technical prowess. I've heard plenty of very fast bebop, country, and pop players who seem like they are just playing scales, and others who take those rapid notes and make melodies out of them. I've heard bands doing their original songs that duplicated tired old chord progressions with uninspiring words and performed with no emotion. And I've heard original 12 bar blues tunes, performed by technically adequate musicians, but with so much soul they blew me away. So you can't equate art with technical prowess - although if you have the talent for the art, the more technical ability you have with your tools, the better you can convey your art to your audience. So what I think is art may not be your definition and that's OK. Saturday at home I listened to the Moscow Philharmonic do Shostakovitch's 4th symphony - the one he didn't release until Stalin died because he feared for his very life. It's a wonderful piece of art. On the way to an errand my iPod played Neil Diamond's "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show" and I'm listening to the musicians, background singers and Neil and it moves me, it's also a wonderful piece of art. A few tunes later Muddy Water's "You Can't Lose What You Never Had" came on and it moves me in a different way - and I think it's a wonderful piece of art. That night Leilani sang "Unchained Melody", her vocals raised the hair on the back of my neck and as I looked out a few couples stopped dancing to stand there and stare at her in amazement and I thought the way we covered that song, the backing track, my wind synth playing, and especially Leilani's vocals made a great work of art. I've been a musician all my life, I've played in jazz bands where the likes of Ira Sullivan, Duffy Jackson and others came to sit in, I've played in cover bands at singles bars trying to do it exactly like the record, I've warmed up for headliners like The Four Seasons, The Association, and various Motown stars while their records were number one on billboard, and I've also played seedy dives where the only reason the band was there is so one table couldn't hear the drug deal going on at the next table. I have no regrets, and even though I'm of retirement age, I have no plans to retire. As long as I can fog a mirror and there is someone who will want to hear me, I'll play music. If nobody wants to pay me anymore, I'll do it in public parks, at the VA hospital, for charity events and other non-commercial venues. In the late 1980s I met a guy playing the piano bar on a cruise ship. Irving Bloom who got his start playing piano in silent movie houses. At one time he was president of the New York local of the AFofM. He was 82 years young at the time, and was curious about the synthesizers that the new keyboard players in bands were bringing on the ship. He said that if he was still in his 70s he'd buy one. Irving never lost his enthusiasm for music, was an artful player and a good entertainer as well. When I'm 82 I hope to be that alive. Irving is now playing in the 'great gig in the sky' and while he was here he touched the emotions of countless people. No matter what you play, if you move the audience, it's good music, whether other musicians think so or not. I'm very glad I've been a professional musician most of my life. If I had pursued the electronics engineering that I took in college, I'd have a lot more money right now, but would I have had a happier life so far? I doubt it. Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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August 22, 2025

XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!

Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.

What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?

XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!

Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!

Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!

August 06, 2025

Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!

It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!

We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!

Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:

Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!

Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!

July 27, 2025

New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!

We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!

Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!

Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.

Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles

Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)

And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.

You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.

Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!

The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!

July 23, 2025

Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!

With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!

These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
Playable RealTracks Set 4
RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.

Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:

20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe

Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!

July 21, 2025

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

July 21, 2025

New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!

We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!

If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!

Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

July 21, 2025

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

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