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Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? #258087 07/31/14 03:24 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar ZeroZero OP Expert
OP ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar	I mean I can get this for basic chords such as minors and majors, but how do you get to the answers with more exotic chords like altered and flat nines, Lydian dominants and similar? What's the ears calculation? For a dominant it seems like anything is legit in many cases. Anyone please? Z Last edited by ZeroZero; 07/31/14 03:28 PM. Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258208 08/01/14 05:37 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 19,903 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 19,903 Australia	Zero, Regarding the extension of dominant harmony. As you note, there are many possibilities. The main factors that control good choices (from my experience at least) are ... 1. The melody For example if the chord has a Bb in it and the melody has either a B natural, it's possible the chord won't sound the best. 2. The key signature For example, if my song is in the key of F with the essential Bb, then this will impact on some chords. Let's say I wanted an A7 variation in F major. I couldn't easily choose A9 because that would potentially conflict with the Bb in the key signature; a better choice would probably be to flatten the 9th and use A7b9. 3. The chords that precede and follow the dominant harmony. Where possible (but not always), I like to prepare a dissonance as it helps make the chord change smoother. For example, let's say, I like the sound of A7b9 for a particular bar (my key is F major). The two dissonant notes are the 7th (G) and the b9th (Bb). For a chord that leads into the A7b9, I'd first look for something that has G and Bb in it (some possibilities relevant to F major could be C7, Bb6, Gm7, Dm6, Em7b5). If I can't find a chord that appeals, I'd then aim to find something that contains at least one of the dissonant notes. For a chord that follows the A7b9, I keep in mind that dissonant notes usually drop by either a tone or a semitone to a note in the scale of the key signature. Thus Bb (b9th) will probably drop to A and G (7th) will probably drop to F. Suitable chords that contain both these notes are F, Dm, Dm6 (if the 9th doesn't drop but stays on Bb), Bb, etc. The above is a bit of an overview of what goes on inside my head when I'm trying to work out how best to arrange a song. Hope these thoughts are useful, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2025 audios on Soundcloud

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258223 08/01/14 09:05 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	zero - There's a free Berklee College of Music course taught by none other than Gary Burton which goes into this to some extent, perhaps not to the depth that you are seeking, but at least it addresses the modes and some of the 'extensions' you are referring to and how to look for what would make sense in an improvisation sense. I will re-take the class again, because I think I absorbed about 10% of the material first time around. Here's the listing for the class: https://www.coursera.org/course/improvisation Next session opens October 13. It's a tough course, I'll just warn you up front. There's quite a bit of homework involving analysing existing songs and scores for appropriate modes and so forth. Don't be discouraged by the first week's assignment - it's rather difficult. What can help is to look up other versions of the first week's assignment on YouTube - to get a sense for the melody of the original song. The course almost takes the opposite approach of your question - in that it's teaching improvisation techniques based on chords and key signature, and looking for what scales work best in a situation when you aren't told "oh here, you would use mixolydian then switch to dorian in the next measure, etc." But the 'extensions' and the appropriate improvisation mode scale, coupled with the melody and how it's interacting with leading chord notes are absolutely interrelated. I think you would find many of your answers by taking the class. Oh, did I mention that it's free and the instructor is Gary Burton? My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258435 08/03/14 10:41 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar ZeroZero OP Expert
OP ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar	Thank you for the replies I will certainly consider the Burton Course - I am a big fan of Getz who played with him all the time. Gary said in a video I just watched that Getz only knew the triads and di the rest by ear!!!! I read elsewhere he said he 'did not like listening to jazz and preferred the classics' Err.... I have a lesson coming on Wednesday my first for a while. I look forward to that! I can improvise freely over the major modes, but it all sounds quite 'major diatonic', so I started on minor modes, melodic minor modes, then I realise that the minor II V I's are NOT the equivalent of the major II V I's..... in the sense they are not the II, the V and the I of a parent minor key. In fact, the minor modes and the minor II V I's are very different. I post my findings in my other thread. Noel: I will give some thought to what you have said. I am still puzzled by why the upper extension of a C major chord would often be considered as having a #11. I can understand this in a Lydian context, but it seems to apply elsewhere. In order to get in under my fingers, I have to really understand it. I am doing a lot of work on this at present. Z Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258534 08/04/14 08:06 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 716 Scotland alan S. Journeyman
alan S. Journeyman Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 716 Scotland	Another way of thinking about extensions and organizing them coherently is provided by using a common or group of closely related upper structures (e.g. the first triad inversion of each major minor diminished chord) over a slash bass note. This is the sort of late romantic/ impressionist approach which is now synonymous with a lot of modern jazz music created in what might be called a post-Bill Evans/Herbie Hancock style. A number of liberating creative options result from this kind of thinking. If you so wish you can of course create a pool of compatible voicings to directly substitute for normal 7th and extended/ altered chords in a progression. Alternatively harmonizing the melody using the same or similar upper structure triad creates the bonding agent tying the progression together rather than the resolution of individual chord tones. (See Ron Miller - Modal Jazz vol -advance music 1992) Rather than as alternatives for distinct 7th or extended chords choosing the appropriate slash bass note becomes as much a matter of controlling and/or manipulating the contrapuntal relationship of the bass with the melody. (again check out Ron Miller) The bass note can also be treated (on the basis of the overtone series) as a potential major triad and as such a countervailing key centre to that implied by the upper triad. This creates a logical basis for exploring exotic polytonal extended voicing within a framework of a cadential song form. (David Liebman - A Chromatic Approach To Jazz Harmony and Melody) Songs can become dislocated from a central key centre. Improvising on each of the harmonies (depending on harmonic rhythm) can be difficult in the manner of a Giant Steps type progression but on the other hand yield original and stimulating results using motivic cell chains. (Check out guitarist John Abercrombie on Kenny wheeler's lovely MaBelle Helene for a clear example). HTH Alan

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258541 08/04/14 09:48 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,086 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,086 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Originally Posted By: ZeroZero I am still puzzled by why the upper extension of a C major chord would often be considered as having a #11. It is unusual to find a #11 chord "by itself" for a sustained time. It strongly wants to move, usually to a IV chord. As such, you would often find this chord in the fourth, eighth etc. measure of a phrase = a transitional chord. It's a very odd tune where you get to land on this and blow over it for awhile. So, I don't know who said this is "often" an extension for a straight major chord, but I disagree. Even in Brazilian music, where #11 is used a lot, it still isn't "often". Minor point, I know... BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258548 08/04/14 10:48 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar ZeroZero OP Expert
OP ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar	Willie Myette was one source for this #4 thing... Someone mentioned Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept. I have an old copy but I must say that I found it hard to read. what I got from him is that if you stack Perfect 5ths then you get a Lydian scale, not an Ionian. C, G, D,A, E, B, F# (not F). Perhaops this has something to do with it? I can see the #11 on a major chord in the IV position, no problem. Also, building from Lydian rather than Ionian, in perfect fifths, you can get a sequence where the Lydian is the brightest scale, the Ionian second brightest, then myxolidian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, then LOcrian. Each scale changes by one note, and darkens. the order is: Lydian (#4) Ionian (THE #4 is naturalised) Myxolidian (the seventh is flattened) Dorian (the third is flattened) Aeoilian (the sixth is flattened) Phrygian (the 9th is flattened) Locrian (THe fifth is flattened) The roots go down in fourths/up in fifths as do the alterations. This makes sense to me (somehow) but I have been unable to relate it to alterations Perhaps the #11 extension is really a Lydian thing, unless you looking for dischord? Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258551 08/04/14 11:02 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar ZeroZero OP Expert
OP ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar	Quote: Another way of thinking about extensions and organizing them coherently is provided by using a common or group of closely related upper structures (e.g. the first triad inversion of each major minor diminished chord) over a slash bass note. This is the sort of late romantic/ impressionist approach which is now synonymous with a lot of modern jazz music created in what might be called a post-Bill Evans/Herbie Hancock style. Alan, I read this a couple of times and did not really understand it. Could you spell it out or unpack the idea a bit please? I know of "Upper Structure Triads" added RH major triads added on the 9th, b3rd, #11, b13th,but there does not seem to be much logic to them...to me..I can play them, but not really feel them. Z Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258581 08/04/14 05:39 PM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 716 Scotland alan S. Journeyman
alan S. Journeyman Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 716 Scotland	I'm referring to the upper structure triad use you mention here. Any triad can be used of course, whether major minor or diminished or augmented. One way of dealing with them is to obtain a purposely limited palette or set of chords you can use with a similar sonority and interval spacing. It's a way of coming up with voicings, extensions and alterations methodically yet which you might not have thought of otherwise. Employing just the root spelling of the triads you can opt to play these over a similar slash bass note (e.g. CMaj/Db, CMaj/D, Cmin/Db, Cmin/D etc..) This particular group give you some interesting 'incomplete' voicings for familiar 7th and altered 7th suspended chords. Cmaj/Db = DbmMaj7b5 ...........1 7 b3 b5 Cmaj/D = D9sus(no 5th)........1 b7 9 4 Cmin/Db = DbMaj9b5(no 3rd).....1 7 9 b5 Cmin/D = D7susb9 (no 5th).....1 b7 b9 4 Cdim/Db = Dbmaj9sus(no 5th)....1 7 9 4 Cdim/D = D7b9(no 5th).........1 b7 b9 3 Caug/Db = Dbmmaj9b5............1 7 b3 5 Caug/D = D9b5(no 3rd).........1 b7 9 b5 You may not like all of these voicings. I don't like Caug/Db in this context as it has the 3rd and 5th which seems to contradict the other chords and sounds out of place. But overall they work well together. There's no reason why you wouldn't want to mix or alternate groups. Try combining/alternating chords from this set with slash chords using the 7th/b7th in the bass. When I'm trying to reharmonize a melody however I like to use the slash chord approach in different ways. Firstly I think of an appropriate bass line that gives me a particular type of counterpoint or root movement; then I choose an appropriate inversion to go under the melody that gives a desired degree of tension at a particular point. Other times I might go the opposite route; start with the triads under the melody and then manipulate the bass line for root movement and tension. Another way is to take an inventory of all the triad over alternate bass note possibilities and grade them for tension and/or implied functional possibilities. It's an interesting exercise to use tension chords like Emaj/C, Emaj/F or Edim/Ab as substitues for dominant functions even though strictly speaking they are not dominant 7th chords. The more you get into this area of harmony the more natural it feels I think. Like everything else it's a matter of living with the material long enough to begin to 'feel' it as you rightly put it. It helps of course if you happen to actually like the modern repertoire that makes use of this harmony. I'm thinking especially of ECM label jazz or related musics. Pianists such as Jarrett or Beirach. Composers such as Ralph towner or Kenny Wheeler. In the end it depends on your willingness to experiment and do something slightly different from the usual. Again there's no need to feel this way if you're more comfortable dealing with the normal diatonic 7th chord spellings with chromatic alterations. With the slash chord method however there's a tendency as Ralph Towner has stated to improvise melodic lines that are less tethered to the chord root and which gravitate more freely around the upper triad in a way that's very much in keeping with the music of Charlie Parker who was basically doing this long before anyone else and with obvious success. Alan

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? Noel96 #258609 08/05/14 12:50 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar ZeroZero OP Expert
OP ZeroZero Expert Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,821 Bynar	Originally Posted By: Noel96 Zero, Regarding the extension of dominant harmony. As you note, there are many possibilities. The main factors that control good choices (from my experience at least) are ... 1. The melody For example if the chord has a Bb in it and the melody has either a B natural, it's possible the chord won't sound the best. 2. The key signature For example, if my song is in the key of F with the essential Bb, then this will impact on some chords. Let's say I wanted an A7 variation in F major. I couldn't easily choose A9 because that would potentially conflict with the Bb in the key signature; a better choice would probably be to flatten the 9th and use A7b9. 3. The chords that precede and follow the dominant harmony. Where possible (but not always), I like to prepare a dissonance as it helps make the chord change smoother. For example, let's say, I like the sound of A7b9 for a particular bar (my key is F major). The two dissonant notes are the 7th (G) and the b9th (Bb). For a chord that leads into the A7b9, I'd first look for something that has G and Bb in it (some possibilities relevant to F major could be C7, Bb6, Gm7, Dm6, Em7b5). If I can't find a chord that appeals, I'd then aim to find something that contains at least one of the dissonant notes. For a chord that follows the A7b9, I keep in mind that dissonant notes usually drop by either a tone or a semitone to a note in the scale of the key signature. Thus Bb (b9th) will probably drop to A and G (7th) will probably drop to F. Suitable chords that contain both these notes are F, Dm, Dm6 (if the 9th doesn't drop but stays on Bb), Bb, etc. The above is a bit of an overview of what goes on inside my head when I'm trying to work out how best to arrange a song. Hope these thoughts are useful, Noel Noel, I didn't thank you for that comment, its another great approach lest we forget. Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k

Re: Why are some extensions considered legit and others not? ZeroZero #258703 08/06/14 08:33 AM Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Gary Burton repeats what you said he said about Getz in the Jazz Improv. course. If I recall what he said it goes something like "Stan Getz is the only jazz soloist/improviser that I know that doesn't have a command of the modal scales, yet what he plays is wonderful." If you take that course, you'll run into where Burton makes that statement. -Scott My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

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