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"what are the odds that someone will hear and steal your song..." People usually don't 'steal' the entire song. They'll steal the concept, the hook, the best part. Kind of like filleting a fish. You are left with the head and the guts.  it is certainly possible someone could steal part of your song! I also might hit the lottery or get hit by lightning! probably similar odds on all three!
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Exactly.....
I'm not saying DON'T copyright if that's what helps you sleep at night....
I agree 100% that with the majority of writers, the majority of the music they (we) (I) write is simply not written well enough that it is commercially viable. Hence, no reason in the world to copyright except for ego. I'm looking back at my early writings in reference to this and even some of the stuff I write now... no one wants that stuff.
There is no law on "stealing" an idea, concept, or groove from another song. Same thing with chord progressions.....I've seen a ton of YouTube videos showing band after band all playing the same progression in hit after hit..... no laws broken. Millions made. No law suits files.
Yeah, any protection is better than no protection, which is why I use Songuard. If I ever need to go to court over someone ripping off my tunes, of course I will get a copyright with the LOC and I will pay Songuard the fee to retrieve the song, plus my attorney will be getting all the other "proof"....server records and date stamps for uploads and internet sites. There is such a huge digital trail left behind these days..... and if all else fails there's always the NSA's records, becuase as we have come to find out, they are cataloging every bit of internet traffic and emails..... <<< that's a joke fellows about the NSA.... or is it?
The old trick of mailing it to yourself is totally a waste of time and money. With the ability of opening and resealing the package without leaving signs, no judge in the country would admit that as irrefutable, solid evidence in his courtroom.
There is also the possibility that someone will write a very similar melody or lyric as you. For example, I wrote a gospel song that no one heard but me. Riding down the road one day, listening to a local gospel music station, I heard a song that was "almost" my song in many aspects.... from the groove to the chords to the melody and even some of the words as I recall, not exact but similar..... I had never heard that song before, nor did I know the artist, nor did they know me, nor did they ever hear my song which was several years older than theirs...... but there it was. Totally amazed me, so there is that remote possibility as well.
It comes down to this: Do what you want.... what makes you feel safe. Always remember this one fact. A copyright from the LOC doesn't prevent anyone from stealing your song idea or melody or lyric and making a million bucks with it..... it just gives your lawyer one tiny bit of evidence to present to a judge and jury stating that you have a claim to that song's royalties...... remembering that the other writer also has a legal team and they will be presenting the argument that his client's song was not ripped from your song and that the case should be dismissed because you're just a greedy, wanna be writer who sees a chance to steal money from his client.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I agree 100% that with the majority of writers, the majority of the music they (we) (I) write is simply not written well enough that it is commercially viable. Hence, no reason in the world to copyright except for ego. I'm looking back at my early writings in reference to this and even some of the stuff I write now... no one wants that stuff. I concur with the above. Even though I'm very critical of my writing efforts I'm pleased with the songs/lyrics I've written and I've never copyrighted anything. I don't take myself that seriously and have no illusions about my place in the music world. From my perspective, to think someone would actually rip off one of my songs from soundclick is nothing short of delusional. If anything of mine was stolen (so to speak) they'd be better served by taking a Pop Songwriting For Mass appeal course. As stated, if it would occur our efforts can be digitally proven/verified anyway. Ohhh....the litigation that would follow.  That's my take on it...
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 09/09/14 06:12 AM.
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"Ego"? Just good business practice. If you're pitching to publishers, producers or music directors, you had better have a CR on the material. If you're writing just to post on Soundcloud, don't bother. Personally, I'll rely on the professionals to determine if the material is "commercially viable" or not.
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"Ego"? Just good business practice. If you're pitching to publishers, producers or music directors, you had better have a CR on the material. If you're writing just to post on Soundcloud, don't bother. Personally, I'll rely on the professionals to determine if the material is "commercially viable" or not. Yeah... Ego. Seriously, if the songs are not professional at their basic core..... writing, lyrics, composition, structure.... it's ego. But hey... we all fell into that mindset once upon a time. We all thought those first songs where the next super smash #1 hit by the artist of the day..... ahhh to dream.... but the reality was far different. That's why I have LOC copyrights on ALL my early songs. Recent songs.... nope. Ain't happening, not LOC.... read on to see why. I do pitch to publishers and libraries quite often when I write new material. I have quite a number of my tunes in those libraries and publishing houses. Dealing with reputable music industry professionals is the best way to go. I send material out all the time and it gets signed and it's NOT LOC copyrighted. It's not a problem. No one has ever sent my music back because it wasn't LOC copyrighted. I has been sent back for a myriad of other reasons.... too traditional, too country, too slow, too fast, too this, too that... but never for too un-protected. Never had that excuse used yet. With the number of musical cues I write.... short things that are 5 seconds and 15 seconds long for TV.... copyrighting would be a full time job for me. I've even had one major library president tell me to "please don't file a copyright form for your songs in the future".... the reason being is that THEY will do the copyright since the song is no longer my property when I sign it to them. If I have copyrighted it, they have to be sure the Form PA registration number of the original song matches exactly in the extra section on the form they need to fill out. A typo causes problems. Other publishers and libraries that I currently work with have echoed his sentiments and ask me not to register the songs with BMI since THEY will also have their staff handle that. I looked at my BMI account several months back and sure enough.... that library had listed every single cue I sent them and it was all there in my BMI catalog. If you're not dealing with reputable publishers and libraries I can understand your reluctance to send out uncopyrighted material. However, when you record the song to a tangible medium, it is automatically copyrighted by law. Essentially, it's not something you need to worry about as a writer unless you are self publishing the material. If you are letting another company represent you..... they will handle all the paperwork and cover all the costs involved for LOC.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/09/14 08:43 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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"Ego"? Just good business practice. If you're pitching to publishers, producers or music directors, you had better have a CR on the material. If you're writing just to post on Soundcloud, don't bother. Personally, I'll rely on the professionals to determine if the material is "commercially viable" or not. Yeah... Ego. Seriously, if the songs are not professional at their basic core..... writing, lyrics, composition, structure.... it's ego. But hey... we all fell into that mindset once upon a time. We all thought those first songs where the next super smash #1 hit by the artist of the day..... ahhh to dream.... but the reality was far different. That's why I have LOC copyrights on ALL my early songs. Recent songs.... nope. Ain't happening, not LOC.... read on to see why. I do pitch to publishers and libraries quite often when I write new material. I have quite a number of my tunes in those libraries and publishing houses. Dealing with reputable music industry professionals is the best way to go. I send material out all the time and it gets signed and it's NOT LOC copyrighted. It's not a problem. No one has ever sent my music back because it wasn't LOC copyrighted. I has been sent back for a myriad of other reasons.... too traditional, too country, too slow, too fast, too this, too that... but never for too un-protected. Never had that excuse used yet. With the number of musical cues I write.... short things that are 5 seconds and 15 seconds long for TV.... copyrighting would be a full time job for me. I've even had one major library president tell me to "please don't file a copyright form for your songs in the future".... the reason being is that THEY will do the copyright since the song is no longer my property when I sign it to them. If I have copyrighted it, they have to be sure the Form PA registration number of the original song matches exactly in the extra section on the form they need to fill out. A typo causes problems. Other publishers and libraries that I currently work with have echoed his sentiments and ask me not to register the songs with BMI since THEY will also have their staff handle that. I looked at my BMI account several months back and sure enough.... that library had listed every single cue I sent them and it was all there in my BMI catalog. If you're not dealing with reputable publishers and libraries I can understand your reluctance to send out uncopyrighted material. However, when you record the song to a tangible medium, it is automatically copyrighted by law. Essentially, it's not something you need to worry about as a writer unless you are self publishing the material. If you are letting another company represent you..... they will handle all the paperwork and cover all the costs involved for LOC. Whatever, Sparky.
Last edited by 90 dB; 09/09/14 11:10 AM. Reason: Mercy
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Thanks for the link rockstar_not, I sent a reply to the copyright office with the link and explanation. The response so far has been deafening electrical/digital silence. I have been reading quite a bit on copyright, streaming media, the rich getting rich, the poor getting poorer etc. We live in a fascinating time to say the least. Thanks again for your efforts in helping me hold onto that $20. It is appreciated!
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This has been a very informative thread for me. I find the topic of copyright interesting to say the least. For the immediate future I plan to bundle materials to maximize "bang for buck" when submitting as reminded by MarioD I believe, a practice I have used in the past, but not strictly adhered to. One might argue that, with the state of current streaming radio/record label practices and the dwindling returns many artists and songwriters are seeing on their work, copyrights aren't worth the paper they are printed on. But, ever the optimist, I will copyright (I self publish by the way)in the hopes of 1) getting a lucky tune before getting struck by lightning or winning the lotto (although I would accept winning the lotto as a consolation prize) 2) an enlightened/updated copyright enforcement that might actually benefit more equally the creators of the product, especially if the lucky tune hits . Regarding ego, I would like to think the motivation for copyright is not so much one of ego and one of faith in one's efforts/product. If you don't believe in your own efforts, one might argue why would anyone else give it a look. That said, no need to throw money at it in piles. 50 songs copyrighted at $55 appears a much more effective business model than one song at $35 (+ $20!!?). Off the soapbox...Here are a couple fun articles I have run across in my continuing education regarding copyright/artists/industry and struggles past and present: http://illusionofmore.com/bit-copyright-film-history/http://www.salon.com/2014/08/31/david_lowery_heres_how_pandora_is_destroying_musicians/
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If you don't believe in your own efforts, one might argue why would anyone else give it a look. That said, no need to throw money at it in piles. 50 songs copyrighted at $55 appears a much more effective business model than one song at $35 (+ $20!!?). It always comes down to where you decide to draw the line. So, sounds like you "believe in your own efforts" if it costs "50 songs copyrighted at $55 appears" but maybe not when it is "one song at $35 (+ $20!!)"!  I happen to share that viewpoint.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 09/09/14 11:12 PM.
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"Ego"? Just good business practice. If you're pitching to publishers, producers or music directors, you had better have a CR on the material. If you're writing just to post on Soundcloud, don't bother. Personally, I'll rely on the professionals to determine if the material is "commercially viable" or not. Yeah... Ego. Seriously, if the songs are not professional at their basic core..... writing, lyrics, composition, structure.... it's ego. But hey... we all fell into that mindset once upon a time. We all thought those first songs where the next super smash #1 hit by the artist of the day..... ahhh to dream.... but the reality was far different. That's why I have LOC copyrights on ALL my early songs. Recent songs.... nope. Ain't happening, not LOC.... read on to see why. I do pitch to publishers and libraries quite often when I write new material. I have quite a number of my tunes in those libraries and publishing houses. Dealing with reputable music industry professionals is the best way to go. I send material out all the time and it gets signed and it's NOT LOC copyrighted. It's not a problem. No one has ever sent my music back because it wasn't LOC copyrighted. I has been sent back for a myriad of other reasons.... too traditional, too country, too slow, too fast, too this, too that... but never for too un-protected. Never had that excuse used yet. With the number of musical cues I write.... short things that are 5 seconds and 15 seconds long for TV.... copyrighting would be a full time job for me. I've even had one major library president tell me to "please don't file a copyright form for your songs in the future".... the reason being is that THEY will do the copyright since the song is no longer my property when I sign it to them. If I have copyrighted it, they have to be sure the Form PA registration number of the original song matches exactly in the extra section on the form they need to fill out. A typo causes problems. Other publishers and libraries that I currently work with have echoed his sentiments and ask me not to register the songs with BMI since THEY will also have their staff handle that. I looked at my BMI account several months back and sure enough.... that library had listed every single cue I sent them and it was all there in my BMI catalog. If you're not dealing with reputable publishers and libraries I can understand your reluctance to send out uncopyrighted material. However, when you record the song to a tangible medium, it is automatically copyrighted by law. Essentially, it's not something you need to worry about as a writer unless you are self publishing the material. If you are letting another company represent you..... they will handle all the paperwork and cover all the costs involved for LOC. Herb, Just a quick note to say "thanks" for sharing your experience and insights on this topic with the rest of us! I appreciate that! -John
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+ 1 Herb, thank you as well, (and John And everyone who took time to respond).
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Just for completeness, I did get a reply from the LOC that helped clarify things. I believe it's just an condition of the single application firm. All is well.
.....
..Copyright response
....concerning the Single Application, if you composed and performed the music using the Band in the Box software solely as the “instrument” or voice, it is eligible for Single Application. But if the software itself created some of the musical content by using computer-generated means, or if it incorporates any pre-fab tracks or other software-generated content in the piece, then the work does not qualify for the Single Application.
The rules for Single Application apply to purely to the content of the deposit, even if you are the only author of the work, have sole rights to the work, etc.....(end quote)
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Just for completeness, I did get a reply from the LOC that helped clarify things. I believe it's just an condition of the single application firm. All is well.
.....
..Copyright response
....concerning the Single Application, if you composed and performed the music using the Band in the Box software solely as the “instrument” or voice, it is eligible for Single Application. But if the software itself created some of the musical content by using computer-generated means, or if it incorporates any pre-fab tracks or other software-generated content in the piece, then the work does not qualify for the Single Application.
The rules for Single Application apply to purely to the content of the deposit, even if you are the only author of the work, have sole rights to the work, etc.....(end quote)
So, essentially... if you wrote the song, and entered the chords yourself, it qualifies, BUT.... if you let BB compose the song for you, as it is capable of doing..... it doesn't.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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