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This a well written great read whether you are personally on the fence or on either side of it with this subject. Especially notice the section "The Beatles Actually Suck". And I love how she ends the article with "... But then it gets you wondering. How many insecure artists with “annoying” voices will retune themselves before you ever have a chance to fall in love?" Quite thought provoking. http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/27/3964406/seduced-by-perfect-pitch-how-auto-tune-conquered-pop-musicJosie
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Yes, thought provoking Josie. I often cruise the news on utube, recently I have been finding that there are more videos with synthetic voices, a robot reading from a word document. We are still a little way off, but before long we shall be able to produce singers with no actual human being at all I think there is already software, I remember an offering from Yamaha that did this. Maybe a "vocalist in a box?". There is not just autotune, there is melodyne and I know Cubase does this built in.
Last edited by ZeroZero; 10/05/14 12:48 PM.
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Auto tune is one thing.... Melodyne is another. Apples to Oranges.
Autotune goes for the robotic "Cher" effect.
Melodyne is designed to "fix" vocals AND AUDIO, that are off pitch or out of time. And it's designed to do it and leave no artifacts behind to tell it was done. You can make it do the "Cher" effect but it's not a natural state of affairs.
I use Melodyne on ALL my vocal tracks.... not just mine, but every singer on the stuff I work on. I don't often use it on the entire track, sometimes it's just to fix one or two little places.... almost never on BGV.
SO..... my challenge to you is to pick a song of mine...any song, and point out to me the exact spot(s) where I did in fact use Melodyne Editor to fix the audio. If I can hear the artifacts in the editing, I scrap it and start over.
Yup... Dylan, Young, Jagger, would all have problems trying to start a career today. The Beatles didn't have any of the digital goodies we have. However, I heard a story that Paul would spend several days if that's what it took to get his vocals absolutely perfect....and he often doubled them in real time.
Very few people like their singing voices when they hear themselves. The common giveaway that a person is this kind of person (usually a beginner in recording) is when they come in and have FX all over their vocals in an attempt to make them sound better..... or more accurately, to hide what they perceive to be the shortcomings in their voice. 9 times out of 10, if I, or anyone else can convince them to simply sing straight up with a nice mic, their vocals sound 10000% better then covering them in FX.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I don't think the article was putting down anyone. I think it was very balanced showing both sides. So Herb if by "you" you mean me then I decline your challenge because... Personally, I don't mind the technology. I liked Cher's song Believe which started it all. Until it was copied so much it became boring. In fact there's a long time Country artist who shall remain nameless that since pitch corrected in the early 90's sounds 1000 percent better to me. When it's done right and with care so it doesn't suck the character, emotion and life out I think it sounds good. I think that's her point of it being so seductive - regardless of the program that's used. Best article I've seen on the subject. I thought the sign on the door in that studio she mentioned was really funny. The only thing I would've added is that there are still a few genres other than pop and country where it's more about vibe than touchups - at least according to Taxi and it's their business to know. How long that will that last is anyone's guess. Music always changes - reverb is making a comeback thank God. So who really knows what the future holds. I think a great mic makes a big difference. But I think the biggest newbie mistake is trying to sing thrown together mediocre lyrics with a boring tossed off melody that's not going to move anyone emotionally whether their voice is pitch corrected or not. JMHO. YMMV.  Josie
Last edited by Sundance; 10/05/14 09:34 PM.
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ZZ, I don't care for the robot speakers or singers. I think they have a place for people who can't talk or sing due to a physical limitation but that's about it for my taste. I'd get bored really fast listening to music that reminds me of the automated voices that already work my nerves on the phone. Josie
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Yes..... when Cher used AT it was fresh and cool and exciting and it sounded really good..... just like when Frampton and Walsh used the voice box..... after that, it became yesterday's news pretty quickly. Yes, I have heard AT on country records..... there was even a George Strait song with slight hints of AT on the vox.... I can just imagine THAT conversation..... I think the compromise was it was used but very lightly. As far as other folks using AT... I know that folks who dare to use AT in the Sonar forums are chastised for using it. And if there are artifacts showing.... yup, they let you know. If you've ever heard Taylor Swift live.....fingernails on a chalkboard is a nice comparison..... you know they use Melodyne on her studio stuff. This may have been Swifty's first or second studio session..... caught on tape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig1E9WhVi44I don't know that Melodyne could have fixed that.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/06/14 05:36 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I have Melodyne Editor that I rarely use. I prefer a good raw first or second take. I try to go for the emotion and not total perfection, you know like the good ol' days, i.e. learn your parts then record. I think a lot of AT is used due to the fact that everyone wants perfection immediately and AT gives it to them. If you are a singer or instrumentalist practice, practice, practice and then record. An occasional use of AT on a couple of bad notes on an otherwise good performance is ok but to rely on it is something else.
I tried to sing once. It was so bad that Melodyne gave me this error message "just shut your pie hole and play your guitar - I quit!"
The bumper sticker said "I'm a veterinarian, therefore I can drive like an animal".
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I have Melodyne Editor that I rarely use. I prefer a good raw first or second take. I try to go for the emotion and not total perfection, you know like the good ol' days, i.e. learn your parts then record. I think a lot of AT is used due to the fact that everyone wants perfection immediately and AT gives it to them. If you are a singer or instrumentalist practice, practice, practice and then record. An occasional use of AT on a couple of bad notes on an otherwise good performance is ok but to rely on it is something else.
I tried to sing once. It was so bad that Melodyne gave me this error message "just shut your pie hole and play your guitar - I quit!"
Melodyne doesn't erase the emotion and feel.... it simply makes the track easier on the ears. One of my pet peeves is to hear a really nice instrumental bed with a singer that's slightly sharp or flat in some places. I'm fairly sensitive to pitch and can hear things that others miss. That stuff bugs me. AT is not so much about "perfection" as it is "effecting" the vocals..... Melodyne is about "perfection" in a transparent way. More that one time, I have run ME on a track, corrected a vocal to pitch and in the playback after the fix realized that "perfect" wasn't good enough. I went in and added a few cents to the note because that's what made it sound the best. Ultimately, it's about the ear, not mathematical perfection in the track. Talking about the "good old days"..... we glorify those days but in reality, the reason singers were singing raw tracks was not about the art so much as it was that they didn't have Melodyne or anything else like it back then and most of the artists were on record company defined budgets and didn't have the time or the money to spend endless hours in a studio doing retakes to get a part pitch perfect. It was a rare artist who had the luxury of huge studio budgets back in the day. So they did the take, and lived with it. My official 3 cents on the topic.....
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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... I use Melodyne on ALL my vocal tracks.... not just mine, but every singer on the stuff I work on. I don't often use it on the entire track, sometimes it's just to fix one or two little places.... almost never on BGV. ... Ha, ha -- I never (rarely) use melodyne on the lead vocal, but I always use it on my backing vocals. I really have a tough time singing harmonies in tune, so that's why I do it. I am not morally opposed to using melodyne on the lead vox, I just don't do it.
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I tried to sing once. It was so bad that Melodyne gave me this error message "just shut your pie hole and play your guitar - I quit!" Ha....I can relate. Having to work solo for so long I've always been extremely self conscious of my vocals (in my case, figure of speech only) unless one likes the sound of a dull chain saw. I'm waiting for a similar prompt from soundlick. Guitarhacker: RE: Melodyne (I'm on X3) I've only tried to correct a few specific vocal bad notes on one of my BIAB tunes ( Retired on s/c, no lead axe yet) and it seems to work as I listen and hopefully I'm using is correctly. Are you saying you apply it to a whole vocal track/clip? Thanks....just curious. Carry on....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 10/07/14 11:30 AM.
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I’ve held off commenting on this for obvious reasons since I’ve been called a “purist” on here several times.
The article itself is well written and manages to firmly straddle the fence in regards to the use of Auto Tune, at least until the author relates a personal experience of using it with friends and family on a recording and she is amazed at how much better they all sound with the application of AT.
So is sonic perfection the goal of music, even if it’s achieved by artificial means through the electronic alteration of a bad performance in order to make it sound like a good performance?
If we accept that electronic alteration, then why should anyone bother developing the skills needed to execute a good performance? Being close to the proper pitch and time should be enough, … especially since we can fix both electronically.
After all, since a tone deaf little cutie like Taylor Swift can sell gazillions of records by using AT or another type of electronic alteration, why should we put all of the time and effort into learning to sing or play our instruments? There’s an electronic “fix” for all of our mistakes!
No more sweating those scales, chords and arpeggios! No more working on timing with that incessant CLICK-CLICK-CLICK of a metronome!
Who needs REAL musical skills when we have electronic alternatives and an ignorant populace who can’t tell the difference?
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Interesting article Josie! My thought is...use whatever you want if you like your results! And just ignore those who long for the good ol' days when all mixing boards were steam-powered! And a big "So What!" if Swift uses Melodyne! Folks around these parts have been known to use a computer program to generate their music! 
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"Folks around these parts have been known to use a computer program to generate their music!" Agreed. I find it hard to grok people who embrace some technology, but denigrate other tech. In the near future, all music will be written, performed and recorded by machines. It will be technically perfect music, and with it, you will be absorbed into The Collective. 
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That was an interesting article.
To put this in perspective, its worth pointing out that thousands of new products are introduced every year, and most of them don't catch on. When something catches on, its because it satisfies an unmet yearning or need. When it catches on BIG, it's because it meets multiple needs on multiple levels.. and I think that's what drives the overuse of Autotune.
I think the summary statement on the article was "It saves a ton of time"
The studio owner needs to wrap up the project and move on to the next paying job. He embraces it because he can fix more in 30 minutes with Auto tune than his clients could fix in two more weeks of session time.
The studio owner also needs to satisfy his clients. If the song sucks, they won't blame themselves, they'll blame the studio and undermine its reputation in order to justify their dog recording
The musicians embrace it because "everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die". Everybody wants the reward without the work.
The audience accepts it because nobody really wants to hear out of tune singing.
The record companies embrace it because it's easier for them to find beautiful wannabes who can't sing than it is to find beautiful people with talent. And these days, unless you're beautiful, you don't stand a chance in pop music.
In the final analysis it has turned into an audio Ponzi scheme that nobody can afford to stop for fear it will cave in on everybody.
Bottom line, it's a trend, and all trends come and go. Talent will never completely lose out to marketing, though it certainly looks that way in the short run. The pendulum eventually goes as far as it can in one direction, then reverses.
My 2 cents.
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another trend that fits into this is the proliferation of singles acts.
Like it or not, there are so many alternatives to live music that even talented people have had to get creative in order to make any money playing music. One or two people can still get gigs if they have a pleasing sound. But that puts a lot more pressure on those two people than in the old days when one person had one responsibility in the band.
A good lead guitar player who could easily hold his own in a band may find that now he also has to sing, play bass, find a way to generate drums, keyboards etc... and all that is above his pay grade.
The good musician who is a so-so singer can make a good show for an audience with just a little help. His overall contribution is much more demanding than if he just played lead, and with practice and experience he'll probably end up being a much more accomplished performer who doesn't even need autotune anymore.
Likewise, products like BIAB help flesh out the sound in ways the guitar player alone could never do. Audiences are accustomed to hearing music that's in tune. In fact, an audience of non musicians is likely to respond positively to a live performance that sounds like the same autotuned song they hear on the radio every day.
We've had this discussion many times: do we perform for ourselves or for the audience? Each person gets to decide that for him/herself. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
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“do we perform for ourselves or for the audience?” You perform for the restaurant or bar owner, not any 'audience'. They are not interested in providing music as an art form. They are in the food and booze business. They would hire Bozo The Clown if he could sell booze.
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Pardon me for not reading all the posts in this thread. I just got back from a vacation in the Czech Republic and there is a lot to catch up on and so little time (and here I am 'wasting' some). I am anti-auto tune for a few reasons, most importantly: - It sounds bad to my ears
- There are thousands of singers out there who have practiced, worked, and honed the ability to sing in tune - auto tune allows people who cannot sing to take their jobs away - I know there isn't any fairness in the world, but it's like letting only a few athletes use steroids to beat the ones that don't
- Music is expressive because of the nuances - the god is in the details so to speak. Many of those nuances involve toying with pitch - hitting a note a little flat to express angst, or a little sharp to be bright - slowly or rapidly sliding to pitch, falling off or rising the pitch up at the end of a note, varying both the intesity and speed of vibrato - and so forth - Auto Tune takes that expression out of the music - For a great example, listen to Otis Redding sing the line "You are tired, and you want to be free" on the song I've been loving you too long. He hits "Tired" flat, gradually pulls it up almost to pitch and it expresses his pain. If he hit it perfectly it wouldn't sound like pain. I manipulate pitch on my voice, sax, guitar, synths, and even my backing tracks.
Of course it isn't going to go away any time soon (if at all), so I'll simply listen to something else. While on vacation I went to concerts by the Czech Philharmonic and the Prague Symphony orchestras and attended a Dvorak Opera with non-auto-tuned singers and a live orchestra in the pit. Real music. The auto-tune people won't get my dollars, but then, they don't need mine, it's obviously easy to fool most of the people most of the time. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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“Understandably, Swift isn't perfect. She fails to hold every note on key, and her vocal ability is less than impressive. But Swift was also dancing and remembering choreography. She was in a loud venue where she could barely hear herself. That's not the most conducive environment for a stellar vocal performance.” It's easy to take shots from the peanut gallery. Anyone care to post some of their own raw vocal tracks? Exactly, even the best are not perfect. I remember watching a really good concert that was part of Obama's first inauguration. One of the performers was Dianna Krall and she was way out of key yet we all know she's an awesome singer. I can only chalk that up to bad monitoring. If you can't hear yourself as a vocalist, you're dead. I also agree with the comments about saving studio time and giving an artist what they want. Most studios are not recording big names, they're recording the gazillions of wannabe's who managed to scrape up a couple grand to buy some time for a decent demo. Most need all the help they can get. Most people are not good singers. I hear that all the time with user's recordings posted here. Not going to name names but when I hear a mix where the vocal is buried, that says the person knows their singing isn't that good and they don't want it out front. Unfortunately that also says to any experienced listener that it's an amateur recording. It becomes a chicken and egg thing, people use this software to try to create a decent pro level recording yet a pro recording has the vocals right out there front and center, in your face. The user suddenly realizes their vocals don't stand up to that so they deliberately bury them in the mix which just makes the whole mix muddy and amateur sounding and voids the whole reason for using this software in the first place. 'Round and round it goes. Enter the high tech toys to try to fix that. Or... Time for some vocal coaching and lots of practice. Bob
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