PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Some times you have to pay for it

OK Bob, hope you feel better. I don't disagree with anything you said, except where did you get the idea I was trying to "make a mark in the music business". Give me a little credit, I am not delusional. I'm just frustrated and depressed - after all I am in morning.

Me, I like the stuff I'm doing - it's always been about the sound for me - if I like the sound of something I'm hearing, if it gives me goosebumps or makes me smile, or tickles my fancy, I like it and I don't care who or what made that happen.

My music collection that I play in my car for commuting, is comprised these days of nearly all unknown artists found on Noisetrade.

I have loads of fun making music and sometimes what I play and record makes me smile and gives me the good vibes from my favorite artists.

As for everyone using mixers at home, I've never understood that sacrificing of audio quality for patching convenience.

Because of employment, I do know lots of folks that are 'making a mark' in the music business, and the happiest ones, even those who have even been nominated for Grammys, drive around in normal cars with normal (not trophy) wives, with well-behaved kids, and give most of their money away.

Dan,

Don't be too hard on yourself, and for goodness sake don't discount that it could all be Rharv's fault anyway, just saying.

Later,

Gosh, and here's me thinking that making Music was for the Fun and Pleasure of it, not some self-serving Holy Grail to cast before an unsuspecting Audience as self-perceived Perfection.

sixchannell, music=healer - simple

from http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=4008



you may not be where you want to be but are you prepared to do what it will take to get there and maybe loose something that you also value along the way



to me time is a precious gift we've been given how we choose to spend it is our choice and those choices will have consequences

You are so right!

“Treat it like the fun hobby it is and forget about doing something that's going to impress somebody working at a big studio in NY, LA or Nashville. I mean forget it, man.

How do I know none on this forum are that good? Because if one of you is that good you wouldn't be writing the stuff you post here.”


You make quite a few assumptions about the motives for people here, Bob. I think that most here are hobbyists, and admittedly so. What I don't understand is the vitriol in that last statement.

Just curious – do you write music Bob?

Well another thing is, musicians are competitive, invite a musician into your home, and if he is good most of them (now not all) will let you know that by playing their finest tunes, sure can make you feel a little humble and over awed of them, even in some cases make you play bad in their presence.

Jazzmammal (Bob) has a point, hell if we were all that good we wouldn't be using biab.

musiclover

It's worth noting that even players of the skill level of Robert Conti sometimes take years off from playing to attend to their lives.

So many people today appear to confuse "music" and "the music business", as if they're one and the same. They are not, except by coincidence. If you can separate them in your own mind, then the question becomes more about what brings personal satisfaction to you as a person. Do we need people to tell us we're good players, do we need approval? Do we need to hear applause in some form?

If music is to be one's profession, then one needs the music business to survive. Most lifetime players ultimately survive by teaching music to others, not simply by playing and/or performing.

If music is simply a personal passion and pursuit, then it's more of a "spiritual" exercise and the satisfaction derived is its own end unto itself. In other words, the endorphins and dopamine our brains produce under the right circumstances provide a high level of emotional/intellectual satisfaction which may be all the fulfillment we need to experience.

Questions to ask include "Who am I doing this for?", "What am I trying to get out of this work and experience?", and "Is my musical satisfaction based on the reactions of others?".

Emulating other players and trying to learn what they are doing can be very rewarding. Creating your own sounds can be rewarding. BIAB is simply another tool and should not become a time vampire, the goal should be to spend as much quality time playing your instrument as possible and to learn as much as you can along the way. Software and electronics should not "cost" us learning time, they should only be used when they can enhance our learning process.

When we die, our recordings may or may not ever be heard again. Our instruments that we so love and cherish will be given away or sold off to others, maybe their new owners can play brilliantly and maybe they can't, but it will make little difference to us since we're dead.

The beauty of music is that it helps us to attain a "be here now" sort of state of consciousness, if we approach it with the desire that it will indeed do that.

In the end, all that matters is what and how we think and feel in the moment as we play. Everything you need from music is available in that moment, if we can find it.

There is no joy in comparing ourselves to others and why should we, other than to gauge where we're at and where we can go from there? Very poor music can earn a lot of dollars but that doesn't make it worth playing even if you can earn a lot of money doing it. Earning lots of money makes you a "musical success" in the eyes of many people, especially accountants. But, is there personal satisfaction and growth in that even though there is technical "success"?

I think that most of the players we admire and want to emulate were playing because they were addicted to the endorphins, dopamines, and all the rest of it that makes us as humans "feel" a certain way. The money and applause is simply gravy, certainly not the main course in their lives.

Play for your self, play because it makes you feel good. Play because it's fun and you can use the process of learning to develop as a person. If you are playing because you think it's the best way to pick up more chicks (or guys), you're possibly missing the point of what "music" is really all about. It's about your soul, whatever you envision that to be.

It's possible all the rest is illusion and delusion. If you can make yourself feel something worthwhile while playing then hopefully you can share it by playing it for others and they will get a similar feeling when they hear it.

There might not be much more to it than that.

"you may not be where you want to be but are you prepared to do what it will take to get there and maybe loose something that you also value along the way"

And you should pray that, when one gets there, having forsaken all others, it was worth it.
IMO it never is.
Ian

Most here want to improve, in hopes of getting more people to listen to their music. Nothing wrong with that.

Some here do have dreams of becoming musicians. I know a few myself.
I sure ain't gonna be the one to tell them forget it (unless they are really bad; I am honest).

I would never presume I am the best at anything, but I have been lucky enough to work with serious talent a few times. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
I accomplished things I never thought I could/would in my life. Some long ago, some more recent, but if someone had dashed my hopes beforehand I would have missed those opportunities.

Dream big or go home.
You'll accomplish nothing otherwise.

Whenever anybody posts a hard hitting thing like I did is going to get hammered which is why I rarely do it. I tend to get on a roll and then start to ramble and lose my edge a little. Whatever, don't take anything I say personally.

One thing to keep in mind is I'm just like everybody else here. A more less talented hobbyist at this point. I forgot to include that when I had my eyes blown wide open in the studio in Richmond that band broke up because we found out the hard way our writing sucked and we didn't want to call the agent and go back on the road for another several years which we could have easily done. I knew then I didn't have the chops to try to continue with music as a career.

I completely understand that turning Dan's point into a discourse about the music business looks at first glance like it's two separate things. It isn't because he's talking about being told by what sounds like a pro that his technique, the way he's set up his guitar and other things isn't cutting it and he's bummed out about it. He apparently thought he was better than he was. Well, that's exactly how I felt in 1974 and a few months of observing plus recording some demo's and jingles in that studio showed me where I ranked too. Nowhere. I freely admit it was a bitter pill. I thought I was a pro, one of the inner circle you know? I was on a studio produced album and several singles. Pfffft. Since then I've met dozens of guys out of the same era who did basically the same thing I did and got nowhere too and came to the same realization.

There's real pros and there's everybody else. Of course that's a generalization and there's exceptions but basically that's it.

Like Clint famously said "A man's gotta know his limitations". Only then can you realistically move on with your life.

Don't get discouraged and don't get upset just do what you can to the best of your abilities and have fun. My biggest takeaway is this: Music is good for the soul and I'll keep doing gigs and playing with Biab until I can't walk out the door any more because I love it. Simple as that but I have no illusions as to how good I really am.

Another little story. A good friend and pianist who's now gone is Eddie Greeley. His father was George Greeley who orchestrated lots of famous movies from the 30's and 40's. Eddie graduated from the UCLA music school.

We were talking about how deceptively simple little licks and phrases we all hear on records can trip up average players. We think hey I can do that Jerry Lee Lewis piano lick or Chuck Berry guitar thing or that little Beach Boys hook or whatever. The truth is the producer in the studio brought in an absolute killer to do those parts if the band member wasn't strong enough.

The guy was a monster who can do those little things just perfect with the perfect touch, timing, tone everything and do it effortlessly in one take. A real pro. Eddie used to say don't be fooled by that and think you're that good. How many times have we heard a recording of ourselves doing one of those seemingly simple licks and it just doesn't sound right?

And Dan, I really admire you for doing what you did. Like I said, it ain't easy realizing you're somewhat less that you thought you were. Just take it in stride, try to improve and move on.

Bob

I agree with that part of it. Real Band has ruined me for playing. That software plays it better and with more imagination than I ever could, and it gets it right the first time, is always on time for rehearsal.... you all know the drill.

You may be trying to become both a sprinter and a marathon runner here. It is rare that the songwriter or performer is also the whiz kid engineer. Every good songwriter I know can turn out so/so production. Every good producer/engineer I know writes acceptably well, but not "Grammy Winning Song Of The Year" level. You may find it a far less frustrating path with much more attainable goals to either pick one or the other, or settle for 50/50.

Wow, we are starting to compile some words of wisdom here. At this moment I am glad I started this thread and glad for all the input - it is ALL good.

It's like each contribution is someone stepping up to the mic and taking a solo. Damn, some really taste stuff. All coming from the heart. Who says you guys aren't pros? I am going to save this tread.

.. you must have caught us on a good night .. <grin>

I am going to toss a log on the fire and wait for the flames.

I believe, and I have always believed, that there is a huge difference between "a musician" and "somebody who knows how to play an instrument". And here's where I draw that line in the sand.

Here you have a guy who can go out and play the hell out of his guitar and rip the blues licks until people stand on their chairs and cheer.

And there you have a guy who takes his guitar out to the little coffee shops and plays songwriter showcase and open mic night, and because he is playing for bozos who don't know good from bad, he meets a lukewarm, polite response.

I call "There" a musician. I call "Here" a guy who knows how to play an instrument. Musicians know music. Guys who can play an instrument know songs. Musicians have the skill and creativity to write lyrics and put them to music. The other group does not.

I also know WAY too many people who think they are musicians just because that's all they do. They sit around either their parents house or the house where they mooch lodging from their girlfriend who has bought into the hype of "Oh it's sooooo coooool that my boyfriend is an entertainer!!" and do nothing all day outside of the 6 times a month they gig. Most of them are essentially lazy people who refuse to get a job, and usually end up with some kind of medical condition later in life that requires them to beg the music community to pay their bills. I get invited to 5 of them a year anymore, and I refuse to attend any of them. They made the choice to think they are "real musicians", making the scene from jam night to jam night every night playing their 2 songs for free (which also keeps an established band without work that night while these wannabe types give their skill away for free), rather than getting a job with medical insurance, and it isn't my problem when they get sick.

Everything where I live is bands who never rehearse and just get together and wing the first 45 songs they can think of, or a handful of players who are in 5 bands, all playing the same 45 copy song list so they can interchange players. There are maybe a dozen people in town who actually write songs anymore. Most of the bands are trios with a non playing singer out front, which means that when the guitar solos the music just falls away. However, in order to not have to pay another member to play either keyboards or second guitar and make 20 bucks more per guy, they settle for that awful, empty sound. Plus these "full time" music wannabes have no money in their pocket, much less a bank account, and nobody can even afford to OWN keyboards. Also, in most cases, nobody in the band but the front singer can sing, so there is no harmony. I recall a band fronted by a very badly out of tune girl singer who thinks she is Stevie Nicks playing all that Fleetwood Mac music with no harmony vocals. Think about how deeply steeped in harmony those songs were. However, as long as the drunks in the bar don't care, the bands won't. As long as they make their $75 a night they don't care AT ALL about the music. (Funny, I thought music was supposed to be about music.) Bands who just want to play somewhere, anywhere, continue to drop their prices and undercut the other bands just so their drunken friends can come in and tell them how great they are as long as they play SKYNAAAAARRRRRRD!!!! I went to see a band a month ago at the request of the singer that was maybe the worst thing I ever heard. That singer had NO stage presence whatsoever, the band does not rehearse so they didn't know how to start and end songs. On one particular song, they went through the intro 4 times before the singer knew to come in. Had that been me in that band I would have walked out in embarrassment and gone back at closing time to pick up my gear. Of course had that been me in that band it would never have been booked until we DID rehearse. And if one of the members whined about rehearsing, they would be replaced the night they whined. Any band I am in in WILL rehearse until I say it's ready to play. That is a moot point anyway because I will never play cover music again. I would prefer to die on stage playing my own music than play covers to get cheap, empty applause that is applause for the song, and not for me performing it. Much the same reason I wouldn't say I was writing a book and then start it with "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." That's been done and I can't do it better than Dickens did it.

So yeah, reality has to set in at some point and we all need to realize that if it hasn't happened yet, it ain't gonna happen. And if one more person reminds me how old Jagger and McCartney are..... they were both somebody by age 20. I am 63 and this isn't the time to start over under some delusional idea that NOW is my time.

Remember that whatever it is you do for your living, maybe you are a carpenter or a plumber, some hack guitar player out there is saying "Man, I wish I could fix my own plumbing!" or "I wish I could make my own kitchen cabinets!" It seems to be human nature to want to do something "else", no matter what it is we do. I still don't know why people look at music as something magical. It's just one thing I know how to do. I was a good catcher when I was young. I cook, I wrote a column for a newspaper as well as an online newsletter, I can build with wood, fix my own cars, and I am really strong with computers. Tell somebody ALL of those things and they just grin. Then add "I used to play music" and suddenly they get all starry eyed and say "Wow! You used to play in a baaaaaaaaaaaand?" I take a GREAT deal of offense to that. It's one thing I know how to do. It does not define me. It does not make me better than anybody else and in fact it does not even make me a better me. It's just one thing I know how to do. Nobody ever said "Oh wow!! You know how to make seafood stew with handmade cornbread?"

So there is MY rant on the topic. Fire away.

I disagree with you right about there.
Understanding (and performing) music involves skills many do not have (or have not developed).
I firmly believe the ability to read/play music develops fundamental skill sets many do not understand or appreciate.

2nd language
math (in real time)
discipline
many others. ..

Music does improve your learning/comprehension; therefore affecting the better 'you'.
I'm a firm believer in that. I can cite studies, but don't care to argue this. Just something for consideration.

Eddie, you stepped up to the mic for your solo and half the audience is heading for the door. That heavy rock stuff don't go over well with the Sr. Crowd. But that's OK, every band needs to blast the doors out once in a while. You got something to say an you said it. Now how about a soft melodic ballad....