PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them.

So true!

Around here, they don't want to pay more than $75/player. It's like being back in the 1970s. I won't do it.

yet DJs can still earn $1000 and up per gig

Simple solution guys/gals just don't play if you don't get paid, unless it is a bonofide charity of benefit.

Later,

the only fallacy there is that the bars are making a pile of money. most are prolly losing money or just breaking even.

I suppose instead of bars being the 'distributors' - you could instead replace that with "INternet music distributors"

Also - to Pat's point - if you want to make $$$ - become a DJ.

If you want to do what you love - you'll probably lose money on the proposition, but - you'll be doing what you love !!!

This is deja-vu all over again.... didn't we just have this conversation....

Yes, the live music industry is in a definite slump, and the open mic clubs are taking away some of the business we have left.

I went into the yacht club, country club, retirement community, private party end of the business and although it has also been hit, it hasn't been hit as hard as the restaurant/night club end of our biz.

Exception: We do play one "club" once a week and We're in our 7th year. It pays OK, but not great, but it's steady and it gives us a place for prospective party people to come hear us.

The problem is, live music isn't as important to the younger generation as it was when I was young.

Add to that TV now takes a big share of our market.

TV?

When I was younger, TV had a few channels, grainy picture, and very tinny, low bandwidth, midrange sound. If you wanted to see a band, you had go go out.

Now we have hundreds of channels, Giand sized Ultra HD screens, 7.1 surround sound, and a cable or satellite bill that can easily top $300/month - there goes the entertainment budget right there.

IMHO the band should hold the audience, not be the draw. Any following the band has should be seen as an extra to the club owner. But of course, many club owners don't agree.

But in my end of the business, there is a party, or it's a private club. People are coming because either they've been invited or it's their club. Our job is the same, entertain them while they are there. Give them a good time so that they want to come back.

Insights and incites by Notes

Two thoughts to add to Notes remark. When I was young, Network TV also featured several all-music programming shows. Hootnanny, Hullabaloo (I think), Soul Train, Midnight Special, Austin City Limits and Lawrence Welk. Variety shows such as Sonny and Cher, Glen Campbell, Barbara Mandrell, Johnny Cash, Smothers Brothers, and many more including Ed Sullivan. Saturday TV featured Country Music shows such as Buck Owens, Porter Wagoner, The Wilburn Brothers, Pop Goes the Country.

The local TV stationed also had a 30 minute local band TV show on Saturdays. Weekly live radio programming is still popular in certain markets for example, Latin communities and for church groups. Little money but an opportunity to pick up a sponsor for help with your live gigs and build exposure and a fan base. Should work to some extent for any genre of music.

Second, although best accessed through a booking agent or personal management, Festivals and Corporate events have big budgets for live entertainment. A more unique but also a lucrative market is through government and foundation grant programs. Lot's of hoops to jump through and you have to develop creative themes, but a lot of grant money goes unclaimed every year. There is grant money available for nearly any idea you can conceive if you also have the ability to sell it. That's where the hoops part comes in. I just checked on line for SC government and there are two available grants posted that total $8,000 and the only exception listed, proceeds can not be used for brick and mortar projects. So, you can't build your studio, but you can buy a tour bus..... get paid to record your BIAB album.... hire a 'real producer'.... Book 10 non-paying gigs at universities, local collage, Art theater, etc and still get paid by a grant.

I live a mile from the Hermosa Beach Pier. It's wall to wall bars including the once world famous Lighthouse. There used to be live music from singles to bands all over the beach from Hermosa down to the Redondo Pier.

I'm a UFC fan and I'll go to wichever one of the bars is showing the pay per view events. With dinner, parking and a couple of beers it's about half of the PPV cost at home.

Since I'm there already I will walk around and check out the various places. All those bars are sports bars with big screens and a couple have a DJ but most don't. Here's the rub, those bars are packed on a Saturday night with a line up outside to get in. The Lighthouse is the only live music venue on the pier and it has been at the most 75% full, no line to get in. The contrast to the other bars just a 100 feet away was stark. Those places are jumping while the Lighthouse looks dead from the walk street. Two weeks ago they had a DJ. A DJ in the Lighthouse! Even that wasn't working. I stuck my head in the door at about 10PM and it was maybe two thirds full. Maybe it's a late crowd but I think I know the reason, the decor hasn't changed since WW2 while the other places are basically brand new. 25 years ago I was in a 7 piece horn band rocking the Lighthouse twice a month on Saturday nights.

I've noticed this for over a year now. I hate to say it but the Lighthouse needs a Bar Rescue and if that were to happen, that would be the end of live music there because it's not big enough to turn into a live music showcase venue. I hear the same family still owns it but they've got to be losing big.

The only thing I can say is at Baja Sharkee's where I saw the fights, the crowd was under 30, SRO, they were very nice well behaved young people who were having lots of fun. They didn't need no stinkin band or even dancing. The only DJ'ing going on were comments over a PA on either the fights, the football game or drink specials.

Financially I have to admit it's a good business model for the owners. There's no need or room for a band.

Bob

It is dismal, to be sure. I have not played for my living in 25 years, and I won't go back to it now even being retired and not needing the money. There are just things I won't do, and every live act does them. I refuse to play that lowest common denominator copycat set list. If my original music is not good enough to hold the crowd's interest, then I am not good enough at songwriting. I will not play if there are TVs on in the room. I am the entertainment. Pay attention to ME. Once again, if they do not pay attention to me, it is because I am not good enough. If it's a big game night, like an Ohio State football game, don't book entertainment, or book a short set night after the game is over, at which point you must TURN THE DAMNED TV OFF! And while you are switching things off, turn off any video games as well.

And don't expect to hear any Jimmy Buffet, Van Morrison or Skynard cliche songs. Not from me. You will hear 2 sets of 45 minutes each, containing 10 Eastside Eddie songs, and maybe ONE selected cover, done in my own arrangement, not exactly like a CD. If you want them to sound liek the CD, play CDs. If you don't like my songs, then I apologize because I failed as a songwriter and I promise that I will work harder at it. I like being in a position where I don't care if I play live again or not. I completely understand people who play music for a living doing what they have to do to draw people and keep them there. It's just not for me. I did it for years when I needed the money to pay bills. Now I don't, so I won't. I love being retired. And financially solvent.

I miss "music clubs" like everybody else does. I HATE the thought of having to play in restaurants where you can't set up until 15 minutes before starting time because they want to turn those 4 tables where they stash the entertainment "just one more time". If I play at 9, I want to set up at 3, sound check thoroughly so I have time to troubleshoot any problems, and come back to play at 9. My take on people who refuse to do that is that they are lazy and don't care about their craft enough to do so. That is just my opinion. (I have heard MANY players tell me "I'm not driving there twice.") Feel free to flame me if you like. Also feel free to fumble with an equipment problem at 9pm when there are no music stores open to buy whatever you need to replace in order to fix the problem and save the gig.

Cleveland used to be a really good music town. And if you were to look at the band listings, it appears to still be a rockin' town. However, once you go to visit some of those places, it gets sad very quickly. Almost nobody has a keyboard player anymore. They either play "live karaoke" with recorded keyboard tracks or just do without and sound empty. The same with backing vocals. Most of the bands are a power trio with a singer. There is a core group of about 25 players who all play the same 45 songs and mix and match pieces and book gigs for $250 under different names, but it's the same bunch of people playing the same crap. One place I used to visit often when they first opened has not seen me since about May because the owner is now booking "junk bands". 2 people from a 5 piece blues act go in there as a "Lite" version with just the guitar and bass player. Sometimes it's 3 of them. Then the 2 of them play with 2 people from another band under a different name... and on and on. None of them rehearse, none of them are tight, and they all just wing songs as they go. They will never get a dime of my money until they go back to having REAL bands again. It's mainly solo and duo acts now, again, all because of the big mamuo. Minimal PA, minimal lighting, no set lists, no sound checks, nothing. Just wing it. If it sounds bad, so what? I still get money. And I really don't like to see those acts. That's why I rarely go out is that the music scene is so diluted. For about 6 months I did sound for a band while they looked for someone who actually wanted to do it. In 6 months, maybe 17-19 gigs, their set list changed ONCE, and that was to plug in 2 "new" copy songs.

I long for the return of the days when music was about music and not money. But as long as bars pay bad bands just to come and play SOMETHING, it will continue to suffer from the major suckage we have now.

I'm terminally positive about this topic, even though all the evidence states otherwise. I basically think that the darkest hour is just before the dawn. Every technological change creates new opportunities, but it also erodes the old way. People who watch for and identify the new opportunities will do well, and those who put all their eggs in "the old way" basket will tend to find fewer and fewer eggs.

I think there are a thousand ways to pursue music today, right now.. we just need to find them and act on them.

Or not. Everybody gets to make that call. I like playing music so much that I choose to look for the new opportunities, even if it means I have to put on my salesman hat and approach places I think would make viable venues for baby boomers and try to sell them on my vision.

If you ask me to name the new opportunities, I can't because I haven't actualized any yet. But I do have some ideas and I'm working on them. I fully expect to get good results eventually, but not without a lot of effort.

Nothing can happen unless it's possible. I look around and I see people making new musical paradigms work, therefore I know it's possible. I see it as a new gold rush. Some will get rich selling picks and pans to the prospectors, some will strike gold, and the vast majority of people will waste their time.

Life has no guarantees. But multiple studies have proven that people who have goals are happier... whether they reach their goals or not. It is the pursuit that provides the thrill.

"I long for the return of the days when music was about music and not money."


When was that? I must have missed that period.

One of the biggest killers of live music around here was the DWI laws.

During the slow season our wedding band played at American Legions, VFWs, Elks clubs and the like. All of those jobs dried up when DWI laws were introduced. Note most all the audience of these clubs was elderly and respected the laws.

The small town where I grew up had 4 bars that had bands. Now they are all gone due to lack of business because of those laws.

Now don't get me wrong. I believe in and still want to keep those laws. But most people are now more aware of what can happen even if they have one drink, thus they do not go to bars. This brought the demise of many a band in our area.

Notes,

Forgive me for for cherry picking your well thought out response. But what I did quote from your post just may be the most profound explanation contributing to the demise of the live music scene in today's world.

Well said Notes!

Later,

I don't think that's true, I think the definition of live music has changed. Now, in the top 100 list of top earning entertainers is a bunch of DJ's making millions, yes millions from live shows. These people are not what we tend to think of as DJ's ie, spinning records at a sock hop.

You have to look up these guys on YT and see some of their shows. They are huge, thousands of people and it's not just the DJ, he'll have guest artists with him, they're working the crowd just as well as the Rat Pack ever did.

I watched a tutorial about some kid in the UK who's apparently a superstar DJ. He gets raw unmixed tracks from various artists and then does a complete live remix of them including blending the original tracks with parts he's creating himself using tons of software and other equipment. It was truly amazing what he did. Him and the interviewer were comparing what he does to another superstar DJ who would take the exact same raw tracks and create something entirely different with them. Think about that a minute. I had never heard of that before. Current stars releasing their raw multitracks for DJ's to mess with? Would Sinatra or Aerosmith ever do that? No way and that's the problem we have. We don't even think in those terms so we can't begin to comment on it.

We, including me, have zero clue about this stuff. We don't understand it, we don't relate to it, we completely ignore it.

It is live music? You bet it is, just check out those vids if you don't believe me. When I posted about Pier Avenue, I'm writing from my pov as well as everybody in this thread. Those kids are not looking at these bars for their dance party fix. They're going to other clubs we don't even know exist for these local live DJ shows.

Bob

This generation of live music listeners just care about a beat, and the DJs speed up and slow down songs so that incessant beat NEVER changes. Nobody cares anymore about quality guitar work, accurate harmonies, tasteful keyboard fills... all they want is BOOM BOOM BOOM at 112 bpm for 4 hours. DJs have 4-5 minutes between CD changes to go to the bathroom and get water, so they can go non stop for 4 hours with no break, unlike musicians who need to catch their breath and rest their vocal chords for 20 minutes between sets.

I personally despise DJs. Though I despise a lot of things, so don't take THAT to heart too much....

I'm sure that's true with some DJ's Eddie but that's certainly not true with the one's I just talked about. Seriously take the time to look up the names of the biggest DJ's and then go to the 'tube. You'll be shocked and amazed with what they're doing. Same with beatboxers btw. There's a kid from Australia who's a big star and I found an hour long vid of him putting on a show in what looks like a big theater somewhere in front of believe it or not a white middle aged crowd.

Middle aged is what, 40-55 maybe? They're a full generation behind us. A 50 year old was born in 1964. What does he know of classic rock from the 60's and 70's? He was in high school in 1980 and his musical taste probably didn't mature until 1990. Rap and hip hop were huge by then.

This is crazy, I just googled "beatboxing Cleveland" and this came up:

http://www.kentwired.com/ksubuzz/article_1e875c14-2d95-11e4-a3c2-0017a43b2370.html

I noticed he says he's now a one man act using two guitar synths, looper pedals, drum machines and his beatboxing vocal skills. I barely know what he's talking about but obviously it's selling.

Damn, I just looked up "beatboxing los angeles" and found a whole crapload of hits. Shows, contests, films, colleges, festivals. I'm almost sorry I brought it up... No wonder there's no bands, this is where the audience is. One writer calls it the "Fifth Element of Hip Hop".

I think I'll stop now.

Bob

Today's DJs are different then the ones when I was in my teens. I did buy a DVD from DJ Tiesto (don't no how to put the tréma or diaresis above the e) for investigational reasons (just wanted to know what he does with music). The crowd even doesn't dance, the crowd just stands there. Even though he's "only" playing vinyl disks, he's, sort of, making live music. Changing records without missing a beat, mixing into the music several special effects... just incredible and creating a new experience. And he seems not to have a fixed playlist. He's searching for the next record like everybody else would, looking at one and putting it away again, taking the next one...

I used to work full time as a DJ once, but I was just more like Wolfman Jack, playing one record, then the next one, if I needed a pause for the cause, I'd put on Stars on 45.

I agree, music does not have the same significance that it had before music went digital. And musicians aren't digital. They are not compatible to the contemporary lifestyle.