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On a Facebook page for Computer Music and Production I heard mention of a new program called Xhail. I haven't visited the site yet, but from comments it appears to do for full scores what BIAB does for songs. So far so good.
Remarks were predominantly negative. One guy said (with a cyber-sneer) that "programmers aren't musicians." Another said that "if people can't [compose and arrange] by themselves, they shouldn't try." Only a handful felt that it might be worth looking at, let alone useful.
Huh?
I used the word "Luddite" twice yesterday, once in that discussion, and again in another in which a marvelously incoherent guitarist opined that bands shouldn't use synths or effects beyond reverb and tremolo, basically because that's all his band had.
Guys, I've been around the block. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at a medieval mindset, but I am. Especially because I encounter the same outlook when I try to share BIAB with nonusers. This has nothing to do with the program itself; instead I get remarks like "that's cheating" or "I don't need that"—without, of course, having actually looked at the program.
Okay, through venting. I am interested in your thoughts. Do you try to counter this when you come across it, or do you (as I do) just smile and keep on BIABin'?
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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... or do you (as I do) just smile and keep on BIABin'? That one! 
Cheers, Mike My Music * Asus ROG Strix G15CF 32 GB DDR4 4TB HDD + 1 TB SSD NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 8GB Win 11 AKAI EIE PRO Sound Interface. BIAB/RB 2024 UltraPak Build - Latest
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My 2 cents..
Many Many, not all, musicians are interested in mastering their instruments and playing live.
I personally know only a few professional musicians, but in all cases, the above sentence is true. They don't need or want "accompaniment software". And they don't want to set at a computer. As a quick aside, I was in a bar last week with a solo guitarist performing. No backing tracks at all, just voice and guitar for the whole set. Wonderful performer.
I stopped trying to be a personal advocate for BIAB long ago. Everyone finds their own ways to do what they need to do.
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Here's a link to a demo: http://musiclibraryreport.com/forums/topic/xhail-it-was-only-a-matter-of-time/ Since the composers/players who create the stems are supposed to get writer's shares for the sync licensing, it seems to be targeted at the end user who needs music and not a composer per se. The licensing sounds confusing to me!
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I'm with ya, Richard. But, in areas of opinion, we have no control how others exercise theirs.
As I see it, our choices either enable or disable options for ourselves. As somebody who tends to think outside the box, I am open to just about anything, if it gets me closer to a personal goal. In fact, I'm willing to change my goals to line up with new options made possible by new technology.
I also think there's value in both directions. For example, I am very interested in the current wave of popularity that bluegrass is enjoying, and I'd like to be part of it... but I know that my tendency is toward trying new things, whereas to a very large degree, bluegrass is about preserving traditional music. I respect that enough to get out of the way.
But if I choose to try new and sometimes even crazy-sounding approaches to making musical sounds, it doesn't matter if anybody else approves because people who try new ideas need to be self-validated. If Van Gogh had been dependent on the approval of the art establishment in his day, he would have given up.
Bottom line, everybody needs to decide for him/herself what resonates with their musical sensibilities, then pursue that path whole-heartedly. If you are good at it, no matter which way you went, somebody will appreciate it. And to me, that is the essence of all art: presenting an idea as a form of communication. (NOT presenting it in order to be approved )
Whatever you do, lay it on the table and walk away. The world will judge it in every way possible. Best case scenario is to find the people who like what you like, and share mostly with them. That's part of what makes the user showcase so cool... everybody there appreciates the medium! And they are all improving in an environment where the junk talkers and nay sayers don't hang out
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Here was a response directed at me personally: Jeff McDonough
It has no professional application at all. For amatuers like Richard Letaw it's revolutionary like the tv dinner was in the 70's - which is now considered awful by the majority, once they got over the novelty of it and went back to real food.. Another member had just been admonished against using foul language, so I just responded by calling him a loud-mouthed jerk (which he Liked).
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Guys, I've been around the block. Ha...likewise, so I'll chime in. I'm still quite new to BIAB. A bass player buddy bought me the 2012.5 stater version. I've since taken advantage of the great deal on the UltrpakPlus. I used to feel similar a few years ago. But, I was never so arrogant to aggressively be against a program of this nature. My initial impulse was that it did feel like I was just taking lazy short-cuts and my material would be classified more as just derivative vs. original. I've always done everything the old way by playing all instruments myself and the thought of using pre-recorded tracks (or loops) was very difficult for me to overcome. I did struggle with that concept and if one did listen to my drivel I'd always have to qualify that '...oh...I didn't play all the instruments, it's BIAB'. I think I've reconciled all of it in my pea brain at this time. Now, I feel much differently and embrace the ability to actually incorporate instrumentation for my material that I hear in my head. IE: great axe and sax tracks....they're incredible and allows us to easily leave our personal writing styles and comfort zones to delve into new writing styles. I think it's overdue for the purists to look beyond their prejudices as the technology has created whole new creative paths for those inclined to write songs when they do not play an instrument. There's a plethora of ways to make changes to one's BIAB song rather than going with the default styles as they can become very recognizable. One does need to dig deep into the program to grasp all that it's capable of to make a song writing effort sound like it's their own. I'm sure I forgot something on this topic but that's my brief  take on it. Sorry for the novelette....carry on.
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Here was a response directed at me personally: Jeff McDonough
It has no professional application at all. For amatuers like Richard Letaw it's revolutionary like the tv dinner was in the 70's - which is now considered awful by the majority, once they got over the novelty of it and went back to real food.. Another member had just been admonished against using foul language, so I just responded by calling him a loud-mouthed jerk (which he Liked). I think it is out of line to attack people who don't see things the way you do... and that's what this guy did to you. But it's pretty common, especially in computer forums where there is a sense of anonymity, and most people find it easy to be rude. There is some truth to the reasoning that an approach which is perfectly acceptable to amateurs and hobbyists might not be the direction someone who considers himself an artist would want to go. Having said that, I think that this guy (and a lot of people like him) is naive to think that professionals don't avail themselves to technology-based solutions. So he limits his ability to compete in a world that is already permeated with near perfect tech-enhanced performances, and the new expectation is for all performances to be that perfect. So he hasn't hurt you at all. His narrow-mindedness mostly affects him.
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A motivational specialist once observed that it is all too easy to say "no" to new ideas—and that most unsuccessful people do. (Xerox ran a marvelous TV ad to that effect during the last holiday season.) Rather than being a smartass myself, I should simply have commented that saddens me to see such a lack of insight in anyone.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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A motivational specialist once observed that it is all too easy to say "no" to new ideas—and that most unsuccessful people do. (Xerox ran a marvelous TV ad to that effect during the last holiday season.) Rather than being a smartass myself, I should simply have commented that saddens me to see such a lack of insight in anyone. Knowing in advance that HE won't be swayed by anything you say, and that you already know where YOU stand on the matter... most retorts have a way of coming across as an appeal to the bystanders for buy-in. But ultimately, that's just another way of looking for validation outside yourself. The common denominator of successful people is that they are so confident in their own mind, that they simply do not have a need nor a desire to convince anyone else or refute any other point of view. So it's probably good that you didn't trade retorts with the guy, for the same reason that it's good not to wrestle with a pig.
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Or, as my wealthy uncle once said, "Never kick a skunk." Thanks for your wisdom, Pat.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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The relevance to BIAB software to original or cover music is no different than Pro-Tools. Most of the naysayers of BIAB would surrender their third ex-wife for a top grade computer with the latest version of Pro-Tools and 5 Terabytes of VST's.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Or, as my wealthy uncle once said, "Never kick a skunk." Thanks for your wisdom, Pat. HAHAHAHHA! I like your uncle already! (sounds like good advice to me)
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This past year I have turned on "six" people on the online site I perform this year to BIAB, and many more at live gigs I play as well. The main reason is they come to me and inquire about the tracks I am using.
Now for the bad news, not one of the "six" I communicate with are yet to us BIAB in their shows. When I ask why, they tell me it is just too hard to learn. This explanation just blows me away, as while I fully admit I may never understand the entirety of the program, the bottom-line for what I do it is as simple as typing in chords, choosing instrumentation, styles and tempos, bam!
I do get the occasional it's cheating BS, but hey there is nothing that will change those opinions whether valid or not. But maybe PG Music should create a very simple ABC of making backing tracks BIAB package. Something a new and not sure if this is going to work user can purchase for under 100.00 bucks or so. I.e., maybe just a few styles or real tracks in a package that will "only" make backing tracks with nothing else to confuse them. "Just a wild thought"
Other than that I try to explain/guide and even offer to make a few sample tracks for them but so far all I get is , nahhhh thanks but I'll get to it sometime later.
So I guess the long answer is, as you, I just go on about using BIAB to make wonderful tracks that without, I would never book as many gigs as I do.
PS: I am thinking the content of this topic could not have been better described with any other title . . . Lack of Vision.
Later,
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Checked out the company's website. I'll look forward to seeing more demos once it reaches the public. Not much news from them since the new year. Looks like they cater a lot to the film and gaming industries per what their info shows. Score Music Interactive
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
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I used the word "Luddite" twice yesterday, once in that discussion, and again in another in which a marvelously incoherent guitarist opined that bands shouldn't use synths or effects beyond reverb and tremolo, basically because that's all his band had. it's always interesting to me when people start to use their own thinking as the standard by which everyone else's behavior should be judged. Its a trait that shows up everywhere: in religion, politics, music, sports, philosophy.. even science. Anywhere there's room for more than one opinion, somebody will judge others using himself as the perfect standard.
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This past year I have turned on "six" people on the online site I perform this year to BIAB, and many more at live gigs I play as well. The main reason is they come to me and inquire about the tracks I am using.
Now for the bad news, not one of the "six" I communicate with are yet to us BIAB in their shows. When I ask why, they tell me it is just too hard to learn. This explanation just blows me away, as while I fully admit I may never understand the entirety of the program, the bottom-line for what I do it is as simple as typing in chords, choosing instrumentation, styles and tempos, bam!
I do get the occasional it's cheating BS, but hey there is nothing that will change those opinions whether valid or not. But maybe PG Music should create a very simple ABC of making backing tracks BIAB package. Something a new and not sure if this is going to work user can purchase for under 100.00 bucks or so. I.e., maybe just a few styles or real tracks in a package that will "only" make backing tracks with nothing else to confuse them. "Just a wild thought"
Other than that I try to explain/guide and even offer to make a few sample tracks for them but so far all I get is , nahhhh thanks but I'll get to it sometime later.
So I guess the long answer is, as you, I just go on about using BIAB to make wonderful tracks that without, I would never book as many gigs as I do.
PS: I am thinking the content of this topic could not have been better described with any other title . . . Lack of Vision.
Later,
Danny, I've had exactly the same experience with LOTS of musicians. And while I agree that there is a certain lack of vision at play, I think there's something else too... because some of the people who have dismissed BIAB I would normally think of as visionaries. The common denominator I see in those who are dismissive is that they are afraid of being judged by people they respect. In many cases they have forged a good musical reputation among their peers, they recognize how fragile that can be, and they are not willing to do anything to risk being perceived in a new light that might be less positive. People who don't need external validation have no problem accepting new ideas and music technology. People in that group include those whose accomplishments are already so well established they are unassailable, people whose accomplishments are so low they have nothing to lose, and people in the middle who are completely OK with who they are and who tend to make choices for their own reasons. In other words, people whose sense of OKness comes from themselves, not from others. That may or may not be true, but it's how I see it. But I think it's significant to note that the people on this forum tend to be highly confident and self affirming. They know what they like and they pursue it whole-heartedly. Like you Danny. 
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Richard, recently I heard someone talk about how much wasted energy it takes to "hate'. The person you hate doesn't know it, and even if they did, it isn't hurting them, so why bother?
Look at this the same way. Whether somebody agrees with you or not doesn't change your life at all, right?
It's your opinion. An opinion can not be wrong.
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I answer the "where did you get those great tracks?" question with "I have a 'home studio' (which I do) The initial cost of the studio and equipment was expensive (which it was and includes BIAB among other things) I have friends over (which I do - not necessarily to make recordings, but sometimes that too) Completing some, if not most, projects takes hours and sometimes weeks or more (procrastination - I'm an expert). I top it off by offering to make a soundtrack demo for them to see how 'home recording' would work for their situation but allow me a week or so to do it.
Being retired gives me the time that if I wanted to, I could easily create a quality 10 song Karaoke backing track CD for someone in a day using BIAB. I would never do a one day turn around on such a CD if I were to make one because the common image people have about recording is that it's complicated and takes hours and hours of work. Why ruin the impression they formed themselves? Most folk would doubt the reality that I made the CD from scratch. It would diminish the product credibility of the CD and cheapen the value of the CD in most people's mind. Amazing soundtracks can be created in BIAB just as Danny C. said, by entering a correct and comprehensive chord chart, taking time to choose the best style, tempo and instrumentation and generating a complete backing track.
Last edited by c_fogle; 01/11/15 03:31 AM.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Just my opinion,
I use BIAB for practice, its the best tool by far.
I also have a decent studio with very good plugins. I dont use it much anymore.
I tried doing tracks using loops etc, but I found it deeply unsatisfying. Yes, I could make something that others called music, but I did not feel like I MADE THE MUSIC, it was like someone else who did it.
I was listening to Nina Simone singing Cotton Eye'd Joe. I don't think any machine could come up with this kind of music, the lyrics, the voice, the poignancy, the deep south soul. Every time, I see this poor blind fool standing at her door with a flower in his hand - the story of all of us men.
Some humaness is captured in loops of course, but music is a symbiotic process and this is what you loose when using backing tracks, sometimes its a look in the eye of the bass player, or the way the string section produces an homogonized staccato of exactly the right length for the context, each human is like a finely tuned DAW.
SOme may see these things as trivial, but I think these are the things that make MUSIC as opposed to MUZAK.
I find I can't listen to the UK charts because of all the overproduction, sometimes real music just has to breath, it has to be cronky and rusty be mortal rather than mechanically correct
Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/11/15 11:31 PM.
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